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re-e-power

20K views 74 replies 22 participants last post by  sailingdog 
#1 · (Edited)
1
 
#2 ·
Believe it or not

There is a guy in our that is going to install a pair of them as we speak. The reason for to is as of this writing there is not enough power for one unit to propell his boat properly. Also they have to be mounted on the side of the hull rather than midship. He is working with the mfg. and he is making fairings in the hull for them.
I will keep you posted as the project goes on. I have touched them as they have been here for about two weeks.

Fair Winds
Cap'n Dave
 
#3 ·
looks interesting. I love the idea of doing away with both a 350 lb noisy, smelly engine, and a potentially explosive fuel source. My only issue with electric auxilary is the lack of emergency power and the "feeding" of such a large bank of cells. Yes it could charge itself when not in use, but 3-4 hours of emergency power? Hope I'm not trying to beat off a shore... I look forward to the day that either photo cells make a huge leap in efficiency or batteries dramatically increase in capacity/decrease in size. Who's doing the install?
 
#5 · (Edited)
Is there any feedback on this unit from actual use? I'm about to repower with a Yanmar and this just perked my curiosity. I have not looked at the technical details, but I would imagine a large battery bank would be required. I like the no shaft/stuffing box... Plus it would free up a huge area where the fuel tank and engine are located for something else (batteries?).
 
#6 ·
I'm currently installing an electric motor in my columbia 29. I just pulled out the Atomic 4, nothing more will happen till after January. I'm part of a beta system for Electric Yacht systems. So basically I will fasten the electric engine through the reduction mounting unit rigt on the exsisting propeller shaft. I will put in a bank of batteries creating a 48vDC system and use wind and regan (3 blade prop turning the engine charging the battery under sail or during tidal flow) to charge the bank.

The electric motor and battery bank will weigh about the same as the A4 and Gas. However no smelly gas and the batteries can stow closer to mid ship, and lower. The engine compartment can be redesigned to accomodate additional storage that wouldn't be possible with a gasser. Also my gas tank was in the transom and now I can put the life jacket and spiniker and storm sails in there and actually have less weight in the transom.

This type of system usually yeilds about 2.5 hours at 5 knots, 4 hours at 4 knots and all day at 3knots. If you use a deisel genset mounted on the cabin or in the engine compartment next to the electric motor, you can run unlimited. This of course is known as a Deisel electric which is used by the big cruise ships and locomotives... it is more energy effieceint than a straight gas or deisel engine, thats why they use it. Also lighter and more versatile.

I will be using straight electric and when I run out of fuel (batery charge) the tidal flow, wind and the sun will recharge me. I hear a lot of people who talk about dramatic emergency situations such as beating off a lea shore and every other thing imaginable... my old gasser has left me stranded a mile out from port with no wind... and I've heard a lot more horror stories from broken impellers and water in the line to make me think pay attention to the nay sayers. Besides I have a sail boat and people have sailed them for centuries without any type of auxilary power at all.
 
#7 ·
MJNAME:

Thanks for the reply. I tend to agree with your thoughts on using the electric drive. One thing I consider to be a great advantage is to not have a drive shaft and stuffing box involved (but you apparently are still using the existing shaft).

With the motor mounted below the hull the only through hull needed is for the feed wires which can be sealed completely. That is the reason I'm considering the RE-E-POWER system. I wish I could find some competitors.

Removing my diesel engine and tank will free up a lot of room.

The only thing that makes me slightly hesitant is that there are not many people that have done this.
 
#8 ·
JouvertSpirit:

Have you checked out any of the electric boat forums on Yahoo.com. I belong to a couple and I think there might be some posts in the archeive about re-power. The groups name is ElectricBoats and I think you can subscribe by sending an email to:
electricboats-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I hope someone can give you real first hand experience information.

I like keeping my thru haul setup but give me a few years and who knows what I will prefer. :)

The only thing I know for sure is the farthest I get away from petrol and actually owning my power, the happier I am.

Matthew
 
#9 ·
mjname said:
. This of course is known as a Deisel electric which is used by the big cruise ships and locomotives... it is more energy effieceint than a straight gas or deisel engine, thats why they use it. Also lighter and more versatile.

I may have missed the change in the laws of physics but before the change this was impossible - use a diesel convert that power to mechanical to drive the boat verses use the diesel to convert to mechanical power to convert to electrical power to convert to mechanical power to drive the boat and have no loss of energy each time you convert. The only way you can save on energy costs is to get "free" energy from wind (includes sailing) and/or solar.
 
#10 ·
Actually you didn't miss the change in the laws of physics, they haven't changed. Your not just taking into account all the variables, ie laws not law. The big killer is the loss of energy in the the transmission. The getting rid of the gear ratio of having to use a transmission makes electric -diesel far more effeicent. Don't take my word for it... money speaks louder than anything I can say and the the cruise ship and locomotive industry spends billions on these setups. Their more effieceint that's why they use them.

It's eassier to make electric current than to make brut force, and electric current is real effeiceint in driving a motor. A 8 hp motor will spin the shaft at the force of 8hp consistantly at 1rpm or 3000, a 30 HP gas engine will have to be at it's top rated rpm usually 3500 before it reaches it's hp out put of 30hp.

For a really long and winded article on the efficiency of Deisel-electric systems
http://www.ossapowerlite.com/tech_library/fuel_efficiency/fuel_efficiency.htm

I actually thought about a deisel electric and to run the deisel on waste vegtable oil... but it just seemed like such a hassle and a wind generator would be better for my needs.

PS Haven't you noticed the Hybrids on the streets? Their fuel effiecentcy isn't just from regan (breaking).
 
#11 ·
Thanks for the link to the yahoo groups. At this point it looks like the RE-E-Power company is the #1 choice. They have about an 8 week lead time though. I definitely want an electric system with the motor below the boat if I do go electric.

Part of the reason for my pullout this time is that the hose on the stuffing box is worn out. My diesel engine is old and leaky so I was initially planning on just dropping a new Yanmar 3-cyl in, but now I'm really seriously considering the electric route. Price seems to be about the same. I need to find out some more about the actual electric motors used and make sure they are brushless. This is a big decision for me as it would be so easy to just drop a new diesel in. And the diesel would probably last longer in the long run.
 
#12 ·
Alternative

Here's a link to Solomon Tech & their e-version which uses convestional shaft, etc
http://www.solomontechnologies.com/m_recreational.htm

I crewed on a boat with a ST-37 set-up....other threads on various forum on same topic.
Advantages - quiet, instant power, re-gen
Dis-advantages - Power mgt challenges, difficult to punch thru heavier waves & winds, generator needed for extended motoring

It could have been this particular setup.............would suggest lots of time spent on power mgt (in & out), storage (batteries), motor power & prop;)
 
#13 ·
"This of course is known as a Deisel electric which is used by the big cruise ships and locomotives... it is more energy effieceint than a straight gas or deisel engine, thats why they use it. "
It *can* be more efficient, if you deem "efficient" to mean "suitable for a specific purpose" rather than "more work per unit of energy". The dual conversion will always be less efficient than single (direct) conversion. But locomotives need 100% torque from a dead stop, which diesel engines simple can't provide. Diesel-electric gives them the option of 100% torque from the electric motor. Then again, that's also why *steam* was a better way to run locomotives, same 100% torque all the way.
There are also long comments about how GE killed the steam locomotive, when in fact the triple and quad-conversion steam turbine engines were more efficient, more economical, more reliable, and less expensive overall. But cheap sales and the marketing of "clean, not old dirty ashes" killed the steam engine in the RR business. It was very successful marketing.

Now, if Solomon would only have the courage to put a Hobbs meter in their systems and offer a warranty that was *longer* than the average combustion motor, instead of barely meeting the middle ground, that might get them more sales. If their "better" and more "reliable" and "simpler" system really could meet those claims.
 
#15 ·
A displacement hull requires about 2-3 HP per metric ton to achieve hull speed. If we have a 5 metric ton vessel (approx 11,000 pounds) we need 10-15 HP depending on wave and wind action. to make it easy lets call it 10. We now need 7460 watts to produce 10 HP. factor in another 15% for inefficiency we are up to 8500 watts. 0.44 pounds of diesel will produce 1 HP per hour. so we need 4.4 pounds of diesel or about 0.6 gallons per hr. To produce 10 HP or 8500 watts with batteries at a convenient 72 volts we need about 120 amps. 12 golf cart batteries at 225 amp hrs (1080 pounds) will give us 112 useable amp hours (discharged to 50%) or .93 hrs at 10 HP. It will actually be considerably less than this as the batteries are rated at a 20 hr duscharge rate and about 11 amps a 120 amp discharge rate will probably discharge them in about half that time or less. So now we have about a half hour or less of running time. So we now have produced 10 HP for half an hour with 1000 punds of batteries as against 10 HP for half an hour with 2.2 pounds of diesel. If we factor in the engine, weight of 350 pounds and assume 200 pounds of electric motors and associated equipment. we have
1280 pounds of electrical equipment to produce 10 HP for half an hour versus 352 pounds of diesel engine and fuel. To achieve 5 hrs of run time at 10 HP we would need 10,000 pounds of batteries. 10 HP =8500 watts x10 hrs = 85000 watt hrs/72 volts 1180 amp Hrs. but since we should only discharge to 50% we will need twice that much (12 golf carts, to get 72 volts we need 12 6 volt batteries so we end up with 144 batteries.144 golf carts at $150.00 each $21,600 but only about 360 pounds of diesel engine and fuel In reality we would not use golf carts as that is way too many batteries (432 cells to maintain, not to mention the cabling nightmare and cable weight.) But even if we used large batteries like the Rolls 4KS25P 1350 amp hrs we would need 36 at 315 pounds ($36,000) so we are back to our 10,000 pounds plus of batteries. And we're still out of power in half an hour. And we haven't even begun to consider the weight and expense of recharging. If we have used 112 amp hrs we need to replace about 130. at 72 volts we need 9400 watts worth of solar panels. If we use 3 24 volt 200 watt panels panels in series and have 5 hrs of maximum charging per daywe will need 10 f them at $1200.00 each,$12,000, plus a charge controller $500.00 and 1250 square feet of space.The panels will add another 500 pounds. The pounds per horsepower ratio between the two systems is outrageous, not to mention the cost.
 
#16 ·
Hi everyone. I'm Kevin Plank from RE-E-POWER. I just had someone inform me that there was a discussion on here that involved our product and thought I would chime in to let everyone know I would be happy to answer any questions.
I would also like to add that I must agree with the last post. There is a HUGE difference in electric torque and diesel torque. All of our tests have been overwhelming. Our main test boat right now is in Norfolk VA. It is a 30 foot sail boat. We are cruising around currently on a small bank of group 24 batteries. Since we installed them we have NOT charged them. We've been out 3 times for over an hour each time. They still show over half charge on the "state of charge" meter (gas gauge). We have varied the speeds from 3 to 6 knots. The amazing thing is that we have not had to go all the way to full power to attain hull speed even into a 15 knot head wind.
We are working like crazy to update the website and also working on a new video. There is a huge amount of work to do and the website as well as our promo campaign is just a small but important part of the equation. We ARE looking for folks who want to be reps and install facilities. That's a whole other department.
I don't want this to be a commercial for RE-E-POWER.com but I just want to inform all of you on what is happening with our company and let you know that we would be happy to answer questions about our product and EB's in general. There is a steep learning curve for all of us.
Let's kick our "oil addiction" !

Kevin Plank
RE-E-POWER.com
 
#17 ·
Kevin...Welcome! Just so you know...there is no problem with you reponding to questions about your product on this or any other thread as long as you state your affiliation. The input on appropriate subjects by experts is appreciated.
Should you wish down the road, you should contact Admin Jeff for actual advertising on the site. Where in Norfolk are you running the boat out of? I get up there once in a while and it might be an interesting side trip!
 
#18 ·
Thanks!
The boat is located at Bay Point Marina just down from Little Creek Marina and the Cutty Sark. The Blue Oyster restaurant is right on the corner.
Let me know if you are headed up that way. We will be planning to have someone there to do demos at least once a month starting sometime in 'O7'. We are also looking to set up demo boats in Seattle, Tampa, San Diego, and a few other places.
We can post our schedule if you'd like.
Look forward to meeting up with you!
Kevin Plank
RE-E-POWER.com
 
#21 ·
There are a lot of considerations to the equation. If space allows I would recommend eight 6 volt flooded lead acid batteries to run at nearly hull speed for two or more hours. Wind and sea conditions play a big part as well as the cleanness of the hull bottom. In most cases, under calm seas and light breezes the boats in question could be run at 3-4 knots for two hours with only 4 group 31 batteries. (group 31's are usually the largest deep cycle batteries you can get at the local megamart).
I would also like to add that one point overlooked in the difference between Diesel and battery power. When your batteries go "dead". Set the hook. Shut the motor off for about an hour and turn in back on again. The meter will show some remaining charge and you can actually run it again for quite some time.
Now try this ... when your diesel runs out of fuel. Shut it off for an hour (or a day) and try starting it back up again. hmmmm
Or try to make your own diesel from the wind or the sun.
I know that electric power is not the answer for every boater, but until you've been on one, there is just no way to explain it. The quiet motive power that we get under sail, starts right from the dock.

Kevin Plank
RE-E-POWER.com
 
#22 ·
That's the main issue

"Wind and sea conditions play a big part as well as the cleanness of the hull bottom."

Kevin: Your quote matches what I experienced..............once the wind & sea picked up, the electric motor (not yours) could not punch thru or keep the boat moving at any reasonable speed.
I think the electric motor would be perfect for smaller lakes, bays (even SF Bay - where we sail 90+% of the time) and ICW but coastal & ocean cruising where the engine is needed (especially in bigger winds, swells & waves) for "heavy" lifting, it does not not sound like advancements have matched diesels yet.:cool:
 
#23 ·
If I may ask what type of system you've experienced? Our system is more than powerful enough to punch a 30 footer through anything that a 20-30 hp diesel inboard will do. Power isn't the issue with the E-POD. The big issues are still energy storage. One of the biggest hopefuls on the horizon is the Firefly battery
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=93
They are working on an AFFORDABLE battery that operates with carbon fiber foam instead of lead. It will have 3-4 times the capacity of lead acid.
Our motors were designed from the beginning to perform in a marine environment, and to have enough performance to keep up with the ICE's. We'll be taking a trip across Lake Michigan this summer with a 43' Columbia. Displacement is 22,000 lbs. We plan to go from Saint Joseph, MI to Chicago on battery power alone (55 miles). Then sail back to charge the batteries and return to the harbor. We are planning to take a couple of magazine writers with us to do articles on the adventure. We're actually hoping for some serious wind and wave action.

Kevin P
RE-E-POWER.com
 
#24 ·
Kevin, I mean it as a compliment when I say it looks like you've upscaled reliable electric trolling motors to sailboat sizing. I mean, they work and work well!

I'm just curious how well they are protected from the salt water surrounding them. On most sailboats, we've got a shaft log that at least drips a little most of the time, and seawater incursion is expected. How do you keep the seawater *out* of your pods, and how well are the internals designed to cope with being flooded?

Could you comment on that side of things?
 
#26 ·
Sure thing. It's a very good and understandable question. I can't reveal too much right now simply because of prying eyes from competitors. I know they could just buy a motor and take it apart, but at least they have to buy a motor!
Our system employs (very expensive) stainless steel sealed bearings on the inside of the motor. Beyond that, I will tell you that the man we hired (also very expensive) was a Naval Arch that has been building submarines in the private sector for almost 40 years. Needless to say, he knows what he's doing. The motors are basically designed to be in the water for more than 5 years without any trouble. The prop shaft is made to be just like the shaft that comes out of your boat on a traditional inboard. This is a nice feature if you should ever have a damaged prop and need to put a standard prop on the unit to get by for a time. It is also nice because you can put a standard shaft zinc on it between the motor and the prop. On top of all of that, the 2500 and 3000 come with a tube that goes to the bottom of the motor so that water can be detected and also removed if it is necessary. We have also allowed for an inspection hole (additional option) that we can run a bore scope into to inspect the internal components of the motor. This option also increases the warranty from 2 years to 4 years. Sorry for getting so wordy.

Kevin Plank
RE-E-POWER.com
 
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