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Jib Sheet Hernia

3K views 23 replies 15 participants last post by  pdqaltair 
#1 · (Edited)
I removed my jib sheets yesterday to take them home and launder them and I noticed that the core is coming through the cover at the bend of the bowline. My first reaction is that I cut it off and re-whip the end, which is no big deal. Should I be concerned about this? Or is is this normal wear and tear? Here's a picture (sorry it's out of focus. It was really bright out):

The other sheet had slightly less of this.
 
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#3 ·
Unfortunately I cannot see the photo until I get home but I offer this-

I splice eyes into my jib sheets and use soft shackles to join them. I used too small a diameter of Dyneema and as a result, I caused the same hernia. The core eventually failed.
Compare it to carrying a 500 lb. weight with a dental floss handle- It would cut through your hand eventually.

If you're tying bowlines, cut the end off, whip them and monitor them. The clew cringle of your sail might be cutting through the line.
If you're splicing eyes and using soft shackles, upgrade to a much larger size of Dyneema. It's not the working strength of the Dyneema that you care about, it's the diameter. You want it thick enough that it doesn't cut through the eye.
 
#4 ·
I've searched SN for the procedures to wash your lines, but I can't find the thread! I hate when I see something I know will be useful down the road and then can't find it when I need it. I should save more posts..... Anyway, what's the best way to do this? Throw them in a pillowcase and wash cold?
 
#5 ·
Practical Sailor just did a write up on cleaning lines. They basically said, if the line really encrusted shrub them with water and a brush as a pre-wash. For a comparatively clean line or a line which has been scrubbed, coil the line and make sure the coil has cross wraps to bind the coil together. Stick in the lines an old pillow case or laundry bag and wash in the washing machine on delicate cycle in Woolite. I typically do an extra rinse and then hang them out to dry.

Do not pressure wash. Do not use the clothes dryer. Do not use normal laundry detergent (unless greatly reduced amount and only on older lines). Do not use bleach of any kind. Make sure all lines ends are whipped (with stitching) Make sure the end of all splices are whipped.

That's about it.

Jeff
 
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#6 · (Edited)
A tight bend over a fixed point is the way you intentionally herniated the line to splice it... you have been doing accidentally what splicers do intentionally, the fact it has herniated is not surprising.

This is one of the reasons that knots are not really intended to be permanent and splices are always preferred for long term applications.


No you haven't done anything major to the line itself. Just cut of the end and retie it. Splicing it now is practically impossible.
 
#7 ·
I'm going to venture that the hernia was likely the result of how you washed the lines. Washing machines are tough on lines, but if you're going to do it, create a chain sinette using the entire line (I double mine first) and then tie the ends together. Put the line inside a pillow case and use a very gentle detergent (some recommend Dreft or Woolite). Afterwards, hang the lines in your basement or outside to dry (never use a dryer). I prefer to soak in a large tub using Oxyclean and then give them a thorough rinse.

As others have said, just cut off the end and re-tie your bowline (or make an eyesplice and use a soft shackle). You're lucky it occured near the end!
 
#12 · (Edited)
First, the OP said this was BEFORE the line was washed. I have seen this a few times, the result of an odd combination of knot turns and the clew flogging. This was a genoa sheet a few years ago, attached with a larks head. It's not about poor quality line, it's about fluke positioning:



Washing can be deadly, no question. The milking motion is practically designed to ruin rope, specifically NEW rope that still has internal lubes and moves easily. NEVER wash a nearly new rope. This rope was launder in a daisy chain for only 15 minutes--it basically herniated at every other bend. We were testing the effect of bleach on ropes, and we wanted to launder them to take the lubes out. We ruined 150 feet of rope in 15 minutes. After that we launder the rope in coils, in pillow cases, 12 full cycles. That was damage free.

For old ropes, the best bet is a long soak, followed by some agitation and scrubbing as needed. If the rope is really nasty and you want to use a machine, soak first for 30 minutes, pillow case on gentle cycle warm or hot, put a sock over any shackles, and air dry.

 
#8 ·
I'd sure like to know who the manufacturer of that line is, so I can avoid purchasing from them.
My jib sheets are well over 9 years old and haven't done anything like that. It's not like this boat is a dock queen either, as we are often sailing a 77,000# boat in winds over 20 knots, several days at a time, several times a month.
 
#10 ·
My previous response notwithstanding, it's not entirely clear whether the hernia was discovered before or after the line was laundered. If it was discovered *before* getting laundered, it would be very interesting to know the manufacturer, how old the line is, etc. If it was discovered after being laundered, it would be valuable to how the OP went about cleaning the line, what type of machine (top or front loader...). Most cleaning instructions mention that happening as a potential risk. Depending where you sail, many recommend trailing the lines behind the boat for awhile and drying them in the sun as the best way to clean them.
 
#11 ·
Huh... when I read the thread title I thought you just had undersized winches....:p ;)
 
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#13 ·
The line in question is New England Sta Set 7/16". It has never been washed in the three years it's been in rotation. It was fastened to the clew of my 125% by a bowline. I am left handed, so sometimes my knots are a little wacky when I do them quick. I left it on while the boat sat unused for winter, but they did not flog about because I furled the sail until the sheets wrapped around it twice. I am hesitant now, having read PDQAltair's post about never washing nearly new rope. How new is three years? I think it may have something to do with leaving them tied- I only have two head sails. This and my 155%. When I change them, the sheets change as well. I use narrower gauge for the 155. So, the bowline I tied three years ago has basically held since. Probably not a good habit. I do untie the other ones for some reason.
 
#15 ·
When I said flogging, I meant the normal flogging when tacking. The sheets to NOT flog at the dock. Yes, the line that herniated had not been untied in a very long time; that is certainly a contributing factor. Just trim a foot and use the line.

You can use a washing machine, just be certain to use a pillow case. However, IMO washing sheets plainly isn't worth the time, unless as a prelude to Nikwax treatment.

And it is NOT a washing machine problem, since the OP clearly stated they had never been washed. However, the repeated back-and-forth motion is the cause in both cases.
 
#18 ·
So what's the deal with "old" lines? Aside from dirt... what sort of maintenance is required? How much strength is lost over time from normal exposure to the elements?

Most lines are over sized... at least on my boat to make them more handle-able. Therefore loss of "performance" strength wise is not a real concern. Catastrophic failure would be. Aside from the obvious... what are the subtle signs that a line should be replaced?

I've used some buggered lines for occasional uses with no problem.. again based on the belief they were over sized.
 
#21 ·
Re: Jib Sheet Hern

So what's the deal with "old" lines? Aside from dirt... what sort of maintenance is required? frequent fresh water rinses ideally store lines out of the sun, but most good line has reasonable UV protection built in How much strength is lost over time from normal exposure to the elements?it depends on the line. Core dependent double braids like sta-set can loose up to 50% of their mbl as a result of UV and cover damage since the cover is load carrying. Core independent double braids like endurabraid, the core carries all the load and thus cover damage does nothing to line strength. You can very easily strip a damaged cover off completely and have a line with 100% the original mbl.

Most lines are over sized... at least on my boat to make them more handle-able. Therefore loss of "performance" strength wise is not a real concern. Catastrophic failure would be. Aside from the obvious... what are the subtle signs that a line should be replaced?check with the manufacturer, that all have articles discussing it, but generally hard spots, or anywhere that the line gets thinner. Hard indicates melting of the line, thinning means the core has broken

I've used some buggered lines for occasional uses with no problem.. again based on the belief they were over sized.
Oversized lines go a long way to increase lifespan, as does sizing for stretch as opposed to load. There really isn't any magic to it, lines are generally good until they show visible signs of damage.
 
#22 ·
Coil line. Use your choice of ways to restrain the coil. A number of cheap zip ties would work very simply. Then put it in a lingerie bag (cheap at WalMart or dollar store) which allows more water flow than a pillowcase, or pillowcase if you've nothing else.

Big thing: find a FRONT LOADING washing machine for it. Use minimal soap, gentle soap like Woolite, and maximum wash time with warm water, not hot. And if the machine gets upset about spin cycle...don't worry, hang the coil in the sun to dry.

Occasional fresh water washing is good, because salt spray leaves microscopic sharp-edged salt crystals inside the rope, and those are abrasive grit that do actually cut the fibers, no matter what they are made of.
 
#23 · (Edited)
If there are no broken filaments of the core or the outer sheath, you probably have a 'hockle' - the core is being pushed through the cover due to either the core or the cover being overstretched and the rope has been 'over-twisted' - prevention of hockles is to apply a swivel, etc. to the terminal end.
If this is the case (no broken filaments or yarns), simply determine which is 'shorter' and attempt to 'milk' the core or the cover back to proper length and then whip the rope at the midsection and both ends of the hockle - for a short term solution.

If the rope is "Sta-Set", throw it away and buy quality rope, as hockling and the development a severe permanent twist is VERY common and almost 'automatic' with "Sea-Set"

For washing and to prevent tangles in polyester braid (and to prevent a length of rope from becoming caught beneath the washing machine's agitator) .... tie the rope into a 'monkey braid' before putting into the washing machine: Chain Sinnet (Monkey Braid) | How to Make a Chain Sinnet | Decorative Knots. When tying, Be sure to put an 'overhand' knot onto the end that you 'start' the monkey braid. After washing/drying simply 'undo' the first knot from the 'starting' end and then pull - all the loops will easily pull out and 'untie' themselves.

Polyester is compatible with most common detergents; but, dont use highly caustic 'industrial strength' detergents. Dont use any 'bleach' :)
 
#24 ·
The super-herniated rope picture I posted was tied in a chain sinnet--that is why the herniation was at regular intervals. In fact, testing determined that is probably the worst way to wash a rope. Surprised me too, but that is what the tests determined. The only truly safe method was a bag. If the rope is truly dirty, pre-soaking in hot water makes a huge difference.

There is no reason not to use normal hot water (120-140F)--straight from the makers, they treat the fibers at much higher temperatures. What is to be avoided is vigorous agitation and boiling-hot water. If the hot water avoids the need for more vigorous cleaning, it's worth it. The "warm only" and "gentle detergent" warnings are just to stop "more is better" idiots.

As for the Staset bashing, I've found that every rope has its strengths and weaknesses, and if you use it properly, nearly all work fine. I've sailed for 30 years, and I'm pretty sure that all the rope failures have been my fault for misusing a rope. Staset has been generally trouble free and has worn well, though I think it is often overpriced.
 
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