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New Dodger Woes

2K views 29 replies 12 participants last post by  Minnewaska 
#1 · (Edited)
Your opinion, please.

This Spring, I hired a local canvas shop to make a new dodger and awning for my Catalina 28. This shop had done a nice job making me a winter cover a couple years ago and their website says they are experts in making dodgers and enclosures for boats.

I went to the boat today, and saw that there was a puddle of water in the middle of the dodger. Maybe 12" x 16" and an inch deep in the middle This was our first rain since the dodger was installed.

Background:
This dodger replaced the original 1996 dodger, and uses the same stainless steel frame, lowered about four inches. The canvas guy said he would angle the top of the dodger so water would run off.

He also made an awning that zippers to the dodger and runs back to the split backstay. The zipper that runs across the top of the dodger had no flap or protection against UV. I told him it needed a protective flap and he argued that it wasn't necessary. He eventually agreed to sew on a flap. This was my first clue that there may be some big gaps in his knowledge.

The awning is noticeably from a different dye lot even though it was ordered and made at the same time. So, two different shades of blue.

The Strataglas was delivered with abrasions in one of the side windows that he eventually agreed to replace after much argument.

My relationship with this guy is GREATLY strained after all the arguing.

The Question:
What would you want done about the puddles that will form on this flat and level dodger? I see no simple fix for it. Would likely require remaking of the dodger or a refund in full.
I doubt anything shy of small claims court or a promise to get very vocal with online reviews would budge him at this point. In your opinion, should dodgers be made to not "puddle" even if the issue isn't discussed with the canvas person?

Less Important Question:
How would you feel about the mismatch of dye lots between the dodger and the awning?

and....
One of the lift the dot fasteners at the bottom edge of the dodger doesn't stay fastened because the canvas is too tight to follow the curve in the cabin top in one spot.

and...
In writing, I specified that the awning "should be quickly detachable" but, we had discussed in detail that it needed to be quickly put up or removed while underway. It's not.
 
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#2 ·
If he used your existing frame it would have puddled before and without specific discussion of such puddling probably a tough argument. I would think some battens to bow it up or tubing modifications would be in order both hard to do without redoing canvas.
I think I've seen "stretchers"that make such fasteners snap-able, you might ask your canvas maker.
What could be done to make it more easily detachable, this seems way too vague to me. Is it attached the same way as before without modification? The colors should match but with a long list like this its hard for anyone to know what adjustments to your situation to make.

Don't know if this helps this stuff gets sticky for sure.
 
#3 ·
No previous puddling. We used the existing frame, but we cut the main/aft bow down by 4" to create a shorter dodger. He said he would be responsible for adjusting the forward bow (cut it or angle it) to create a slant in the top for the rain to run off. He apparently failed to do that.

Also, wouldn't it be standard practice to engineer your work so puddles don't form on it?
 
#5 ·
He made the actual cut. There is no weld...it just slips into a fitting. This is basically a new dodger that forms large puddles on it's top when it rains. He had total control over how much slant there would be but got it wrong, and now puddles form on top of it. It's really no different than if he had supplied the frame.

Battens, etc. aren't a viable option.
 
#6 ·
The levelness of the dodger is dictated by the frame, not the canvas. You are the one who cut it down, and then asked him to cover it. But frankly, dodgers should be fairly taut and are often "level" on top, but don't generally puddle. Does the fabric fit a bit loose? A photo would help.
As for the materials not matching - is this Sunbrella? I've never seen differences in color between batches of sunbrella, but I have seen it on some of the cheaper brands.
You are right about the zipper, it needs a cover. Zippers and thread are the two things that will degrade fastest on your canvas work.
As for the lift-dot fastener - dodgers should pull tight, and those fasteners should hold even when pulled tight - likely a defective fastener - have him change it out.
Lastly, the "quickly detachable" feature of your awning - it really depends on how your specific boat is built to how it can be attached. He may have made it the best he could. Hard to say without a photo, but really that is a detail you should have worked out with him ahead of time.
 
#7 ·
No, he and I cut the back bow to lower the entire dodger. He said HE would alter the forward bow either by changing it's angle or by shortening it, in order to make the forward bow lower than the back, and give the dodger a forward slant. He didn't do it. It's no different than if he made a new frame from scratch....he didn't give it any slant to let the water run off.
 
#9 ·
You need some before and after pics, including the puddling and color differences. Assuming these document poor craftsmanship, you should show them to your vendor and let them know they will be posted to the internet, along with their name and location. To be fair, you should let them know where, so they can defend themselves, if they wish. A smart vendor usually realizes they look bad for arguing with a customers dissatisfaction, even when there is more to it.

That gets a vendors attention. I once told a vendor that I was going to post a copy of my estimate for a cutlass bearing replacement, along with the actual bill, which was twice the high end of the estimate. We agreed to settle on the high estimate, if I agreed not to post the docs. Honestly, that was too high as well, as they offered no example of any unknown condition found during R&R. Bottom line, I learned they used a supervised trainee and I wasn't paying for their education.
 
#10 ·
The water collection has me confused. As long as the bows are curved on the top, water should drain off even if they are the same height at the center. The aft two bows on mine are the same height and I don't have a water collection problem. The fabric does need to be drawn snug however.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Many times setting up the dodger frames a bit tighter will correct such problems. Sunbrella, when stressed, will eventually stretch a bit; and, that plus re-tensioning (adding spacers on the tubes, or pads under the pivot points, etc.) may be a solution. It does take time for all the stitching to 'pull tight' and the Sunbrella to 'relax' to its final shape. It is also possible to slightly change the 'amount of bowing' of the frames.
Express your apparent dissatisfaction and concern; then, NEGOTIATE!!!! (But do get any agreement in writing.)
 
#13 ·
My first picture upload and I probably did it wrong. This picture happens to show the two dye lots pretty well.

The two bows are the original Catalina bows and have little or no crown to them. Nice for attaching a flat awning, but it means that to ensure that the rain runs off, the front bow must be adjusted a few inches lower than the back bow.
Easy.

I met with him on the boat the day he was going to do the patterning for the dodger. Together, we cut the back bow by 4" for more boom clearance. He said he would adjust the front bow so it would be low enough for runoff. I offered to run home and get my level to make it easier to measure the desired height difference between the two bows. He declined, and said he would make sure it was slanted for runoff. I offered my extra pair of hands for the patterning, and he said he likes to do it alone. I left the pro to his job.

Fast forward a few weeks, and numerous other problems with the dodger (scratches in Strataglass, etc.) he installs the dodger, nice and tight. I paid him. It rained a couple nights later, and in the morning the top of the dodger is a birdbath.

The frame is standard Catalina stuff...no welds, just two bows with standard fittings like any other traditional dodger. All he had to do was loosen the fitting for the forward bow, slide it down the main bow a few inches, and do the patterning. He knew he had to do it, said he would do it, and didn't. Now I have a dodger I really don't want.

I see no good fix for his mistake, and I'm going to seek a refund. Yes, I'm going to advise him what one angry customer with a computer can do to his business.

Just for your entertainment:
The first time he delivered the dodger, he didn't tell me he'd installed it. I went down to my boat and there it was, with big abrasions in the port Strataglass window. I called him and he argued about it for 30 minutes. Finally agreed to replace the window. Great. The next day he sent me an email saying he had a picture of the dodger from when he installed it, and no scratch was visible, so I must have done it. I said, "send me the picture". Didn't send. Met me at the boat the next day, still no picture, and he blamed:
1) the winch handle for the winch under the dodger. But, the scratches were on the OUTSIDE.
2) My belt buckle. I told him I don't wear a belt, and if I did, I'd have to be humping the dodger, which I don't do.
3) It must have been my shoe. I wear boat shoes, and I don't walk on dodgers.
4) My cat!!! Dude, my cat hasn't been on the boat, and there's no way he could put in two 14" x 3/8" abrasions unless he was using his kitty belt sander.
5) The boat next to mine did it. The guy lives 60 miles away, and he hasn't been here for over a week, and I have a pair of stout lines between our boats to ward off any collisions.
6) He changed the subject and said he didn't damage my gelcoat in two places as I had pointed out to him previously. After he did the patterning, he had left a heavy clip attached to the dodger frame straps swinging in the wind. You could see the precise arc they made on my otherwise near perfect companionway bulkheads. Luckily I have the MaineSail approved tools and Presta products to fix it myself.

I finally told him, "you're on camera right now", and showed him the marina's camera pointed at us. The slip owners own the marina, and the harbormaster WILL show us the tape. He said, "those low resolution cameras won't show anything". "They're all HD, and full color, would you like to see?" He finally agreed to replace the window.

Up 'til now, I'd left out of the story that the guy seems a bit unbalanced. Think, Jim Carrey in The Cable Guy. This is not going to be like dealing with a normal business, but that's another story.
 

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#15 · (Edited)
Yup, it's tight enough.

Here are a couple pictures I just took:
1) Shows how flat the top is. Almost level.
2) And a pic of the hardware. Just needed that fitting slid down a few inches before patterning.

I tried turning the hose on it to get a good puddle picture, but we have a big, gusty wind today so the boat's heeling in the slip and the water's getting blown off by the wind. I'll get one as soon as the wind dies down.

Yes, the "awning" (doesn't use a bimini frame) is very loose at the edges. Done right, they can be reasonably tight, but the way he has the edges folding over, it's really impossible to get it tight enough not to flap a lot. I sewed an awning for my previous boat and it was drum tight and could be deployed in under 30 seconds (I no longer have my Sailrite). There are trade-offs compared to biminis, but I just like awnings. The aft end of the awning is several inches higher than the front, so runoff isn't a problem. Except of course, it runs onto the FLAT AND LEVEL dodger.

You can see the zip-on aft side panels on the dodger in the pictures. On his first try, he put windows in those panels even though I had provided pictures of how I wanted the dodger to look, and specified IN WRITING that there were to be no side windows. He was angry about having to re-do the panels and that's what started the breakdown in the relationship.
 

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#16 ·
HTML:
Yup, it's tight enough.

Here are a couple pictures I just took:
1) Shows how flat the top is. Almost level.
2) And a pic of the hardware. Just needed that fitting slid down a few inches before patterning.

I tried turning the hose on it to get a good puddle picture, but we have a big, gusty wind today so the boat's heeling in the slip and the water's getting blown off by the wind. I'll get one as soon as the wind dies down.

Yes, the "awning" (doesn't use a bimini frame) is very loose at the edges. Done right, they can be reasonably tight, but the way he has the edges folding over, it's really impossible to get it tight enough not to flap a lot. I sewed an awning for my previous boat and it was drum tight and could be deployed in under 30 seconds (I no longer have my Sailrite). There are trade-offs compared to biminis, but I just like awnings. The aft end of the awning is several inches higher than the front, so runoff isn't a problem. Except of course, it runs onto the FLAT AND LEVEL dodger.

You can see the zip-on aft side panels on the dodger in the pictures. On his first try, he put windows in those panels even though I had provided pictures of how I wanted the dodger to look, and specified IN WRITING that there were to be no side windows. He was angry about having to re-do the panels and that's what started the breakdown in the relationship.
The dodger lacks crown....Even if you dropped the front bow an inch I suspect it would still puddle.
 
#18 ·
This is called crowning. The bow is rolled back and forth through wheels, two on one side of the bow and one wheel opposite, until the desired crown is attained.

There are two frame tools every canvas maker that does dodgers & bimini's should have. One tool bends the leg radius and the other tool puts a crown in it..
 
#20 ·
I'd say "Takee, Fixee". The dye lot is him being a sloppy or cheap ass splitting a job across two rolls of material. Unprofessional. As is the rest.

The only thing that is debatable is what "quick disconnect" might mean.

Bearing in mind there's usually a 90-day limit...I'd politely tell him he's got two weeks to fix everything and not engage in debate. If it was charged to a credit card, at that point put in a charge-back. Elsewise, at the end of two weeks just tell him you'll mail him the small claims court notice. In most states that will cost you $25-300 (which he pays if you win) and you can represent yourself, while he, as a business, has to bring an attorney. Making it cheaper for him to just fix the dodger or give you a refund. Of course, him being unbalanced, I can give you Vinny Two Shoes' phone number to help re-balance him sooner.(VBG)
 
#21 ·
Puddle pictures. It's close to 2" deep.

Thanks MS...yup, crown would have done the trick. That's the sort of thing I want to hear from a professional when I hire them.

I agree, lowering an inch probably wouldn't make a difference. But, 3 inches?

I sewed the sail cover in the picture, which is about the limit of my sewing abilities. I hired a pro so I would have someone with expertise I don't possess doing the project. If I say, "I'd like to use the existing frame", my expert needs to tell me he needs to add some crown or it will puddle.

This guy didn't know what he was doing. The proof is in the puddle.
 

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#23 ·
Yeah, I'm thinking official stinkdom.

Yes, it's paid for.

I just sent the guy a picture of Lake Dodger, and requested a refund. Called him, and left a voice mail referring him to the picture and requesting a refund.
 
#25 · (Edited)
My agreement was half down, and the rest when the dodger was completed and installed. He installed it, and I paid him.

Then, it rained.

I no longer have the original. It was pretty worn out when we bought our boat three years ago, and we never used it. Of course, he'll get this birdbath back if he refunds me.

Short Story:
Five years ago we hired a contractor to build a house for us. We started getting the impression he was a little goofy. Then, they poured the footings...FOR THE WRONG HOUSE. I figured out how he could saw through the footings and splice in a couple corrections to fix the problem. And I wouldn't fire him.

He agreed to the "splices" but did shortcuts so they weren't right, and I fired him. He kept my $10k no matter how much I warned him that I'd spread the word online. He was stubborn, and I was eloquent. It's a small community, and I learned that his business was devastated far in excess of my $10k. Oh...and when my new contractor dug out the footings, he realized they were too close to the property line to pass inspection!

A year later I ordered a custom made sailboat from out of state for $25k. Half down and half before they would deliver to my door. Was delivered to my door with the worst "new" gelcoat I've ever seen. Really bad. They refused to take it back and refund me. Before they left without it, I gave them the number of the contractor and said to call him and see what happened to his business. They called him, and then refunded in full, and had me sign an non-disclosure agreement. Hence, no names or clues here.

The day when a small business can do sloppy work and get away with it, are over.
 
#27 · (Edited)
My agreement was half down, and the rest when the dodger was completed and installed. He installed it, and I paid him.

Then, it rained.

I no longer have the original. It was pretty worn out when we bought our boat three years ago, and we never used it. Of course, he'll get this birdbath back if he refunds me.

Short Story:
Five years ago we hired a contractor to build a house for us. We started getting the impression he was a little goofy. Then, they poured the footings...FOR THE WRONG HOUSE. I figured out how he could saw through the footings and splice in a couple corrections to fix the problem. And I wouldn't fire him.

He agreed to the "splices" but did shortcuts so they weren't right, and I fired him. He kept my $10k no matter how much I warned him that I'd spread the word online. He was stubborn, and I was eloquent. It's a small community, and I learned that his business was devastated far in excess of my $10k. Oh...and when my new contractor dug out the footings, he realized they were too close to the property line to pass inspection!

A year later I ordered a custom made sailboat from out of state for $25k. Half down and half before they would deliver to my door. Was delivered to my door with the worst "new" gelcoat I've ever seen. Really bad. They refused to take it back and refund me. Before they left without it, I gave them the number of the contractor and said to call him and see what happened to his business. They called him, and then refunded in full, and had me sign an non-disclosure agreement. Hence, no names or clues here.

The day when a small business can do sloppy work and get away with it, are over.
You seem to have bad luck hiring people. Perhaps more diligence before you sign a contract and hand over money would prevent these problems.
 
#26 ·
The guy that made my dodger went out of his way to show me that the top of the dodger was so tight you could beat it like a drum. Navy blue sunbrella. Has never had any water puddle on it. Has held up for over 10 years in Northern California. Dodger with frame ran around $4,000. Seemed expensive at the time but apparently it was worth the money.
 
#28 ·
My wife e just finished the second dodger she has made for Haleakula. The first lasted 10 years. Saved us big bucks as well as allowing it to be customized.

The puddle is caused as Maine said by the lack of a slight crown. Ours is 1 inch higher in the center of the bow than the edges. It's a small adjustment which can still be done. Having a tight dodger is what you want. Sometimes like ours we have internal web straps and that can do a similar adjustment. There are tools to help with the snap.

The two colors is either laziness or two different rolls of fabric. I'd be pissed

As someone said zippers should be covered if sun exposed. It will also prevent dirt and leaking. Using YK quality zippers is important also. I suggest putting pulls on the as well as lubing them monthly.

Strata Glass is what we used. You should polish it immediately and use the protectant monthly. Our lasts dodgers strata glasss was still in good shape even though the sunbrella was bleached into brittleness after 10 years.
Strataglass Protective Polish #302 - 16 Oz. - MyBoatStore

We achieve "quick disconnect with YK zippers, covered of course. Our connector between the Bimini and dodger zips on and off easily. She also sewed us side curtains with the same ability as well as sun screens for late afternoon anchorages.

Since you seem to be handy , maybe next time attempt this yourself. You seem to have found someone who does not do quality work and takes shortcuts.
 
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