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C&C "smile" and misc

5K views 23 replies 9 participants last post by  sailwing 
#1 ·
Need advice from experienced sailors. Looked at a 1972 C&C 35. Overall just two concerns:

1. There were a couple of hatches that had water dripping from the corners, the wood at the corner was rotten; I was as told re-seal it with silicone should stop it; that may be true, but would the water have gotten into the balsa core already? I didn't feel anywhere on the deck was soft though

2. I think the keel had a "smile", please see the picture. Is it considered severe? Is it a show stopper?

Thank you in advance.


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#4 ·
My question would be why is that area wet?
Could be more than the normal external "smile" fix if water is leaking from the bilge through the crack.
Not that hard to drop the keel and rebed everything as long as the keel bolts are in good condition, just costs more.
If water can leak out it WILL leak in.
If the keel bolts are shot on a lead keel it is a faily costly repair but can still be done.
 
#5 ·
Looks maybe like the keel hit something with the back part, as the crack is only in the back. Could also be an old keel joint fairing job falling apart. With the keel wiped dry I would pour water in the bilge over keel bolts to see if water is seeping out. If it is, that would be a deal breaker for me. These repairs are not cheap. Check condition of keel bolts very carefully.
 
#6 ·
Hi,

Agree with others regarding condition of keel...it DOES kinda look like some sort of impact + a keel bolt issue. The paint scenario just looks like flaking paint. Kinda hard to tell sometimes from a pic.

Wes
 
#8 ·
That is not your classic keel "smile" The smile would be located at the forward edge of the keel.

Good advice she far...

Pour water in the bilge.

torque the keel bolts to spec (available at cncphotoalbum.com)

If a simple torque of the keel bolts solves the problem, you could be fine for a long time. Dropping the keel is going to be very costly unless you are in a very inexpensive do it yourself yard.

Join the cncphotoalbum email list and you can ask all kinds of questions to self proclaimed geniuses such as myself :)
 
#10 ·
The "C&C smile" normally comes from having a narrow keel root and minimal bolts, allowing the keel to flex a bit from side to side. You'd see a hairline crack in the front and along BOTH sides of the keel where it joins the hull, and the answer is that when and if it becomes an issue, you drop the keep and rebed it. There's usually no structural issue, and rebedding with 5200 may stop it "forever".
But what you have isn't that. It sure does look like a massive impact at the REAR of your keel, and rear only. Like from a grounding which pushed the rear up. You'd want a survey to find out if there's other structural damage above that, or some other reason for that whack.
Only way to tell for sure about the hatches, would be a survey looking for moisture in the deck. Personally I'm a pessimist, it is always a pleasure to be wrong.(G) I'd want to remove the hatches and actually look at the coring around them. If there's no damage, great, because all you have to do is reinstall the hatches, and THAT'S the proper way to reseal them. Gobbing on some silicone seal, or duct tape, or anything, is just a temporary kludge. Rebedding hatches (or ports) is the way to stay dry for ten more years.
Since the seller seems to have some odd ideas (especially about the keel) a professional survey really should be done. Sale subject to survey and sea trial, as usual, and if that keel or something else comes up $$$$ then make sure the seller knows he's going to accommodate it, or hand your deposit back on the spot. If the seller poo-poo's a survey and protests...just walk away.
 
#15 ·
I meant to ask, ballpark cost for fixing the keel is what, 5k? 10k?

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The ballpark cost?

$50 to rent a torque wrench, a few hundred in crane time, and $50 in fairing compound and sandpaper
$20K - drop the keel, repair the structural damage, and put it all back together again.

Plan A - The only way to know if there is real damage is to have someone who really knows their ****e take a look. They might tell you that the only way to know for sure is to drop the keel.

Plan B - Before you buy ask the owner if you can experiment. Torque the bolts and fill the bilge to just below the floor boards let it soak for a couple of weeks and see what happens. If it holds water on the inside, dry the bilge and put it in the water for a couple of weeks. Still dry? Sail it around the bay for a couple of weeks, some nice chop, close hauled. If the keel bolts don't weep pull it back out, fair it up and sail it.

Unless this boat is very cheap and you have access to a sawzall and a big dumpster.... Don't ever love anything that can't love you back.
 
#13 ·
Run

That's no C&C smile. I had one. Fixed easily by tichtening keel nuts and pitting compound/ filler in crack and then fairing.
It's a thin line usually at the joint which runs around the whole keel, hull juncture. Something bashed that in. They are not being honest which would make me run. Must have backed into something at Speed or come down hard on something or hit something in the slings.

We just replace our hatches. Ours, yours are Atkins and Hoyle which still exists and can repair them or sell you new ones
However...you need to remove the old ones entirely as because of the balsa coring above the waterline any leak would intrude and probably rot the balsa far back into the opening. Best thing to do is router that out and fill it before putting the hatch in. Silicon won't prevent the rot from advancing ...and it will.....and you have leaks elsewhere.

Windows in C&C are notorious for flexing and leaking because of the stiffness of the boats. Same process and use butyl tape after making sure their is no wood rot.
 
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#16 ·
Thanks. Am I crazy to even think about buying a 45 year boat?

My logic was that if the hull, rigs, sails and engine are good, I can do the TLC on other stuff myself. But maybe a 45 year old boat is simply to its end and can't be saved unless you have unlimited amount of money?


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#18 ·
Am I crazy to even think about buying a 45 year boat?
There is nothing wrong with buying a 45 year old boat provided it is in decent shape with no major structural issues that can make repairs economically impractical. Any boat you buy, even a fairly new one, can have such a problem. There are hundreds of decent boats out there, so there is no reason to buy one that comes with a major risk or liability. Sometimes people sell boats to get rid of a problem.
 
#17 ·
Mine is about that old, a one owner boat that was very well maintained, came with all reciepts going back to the original bill of sale.
Has cost me nothing but some running rigging and a DIY paintjob this last spring.
Running rigging was actually fine but had been oversized due to arthritis in the original owner.
 
#19 ·
Thank you everyone.

Spoke with the seller, he is fine taking care of the issue once the survey completes. Though he seemed firmly believe it is not a major issue, non-structural, he said. He also went back to the boat and checked the bilge, the bilge has water in it but the crack on the fin was dry (it was raining the other day when I was there).

I spotted a section in the picture below where it just seemed cracked off, doesn't seem to be paint to me, what could it be? What could have caused it?



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#23 ·
More likely the front at a decent clip. The keel gets forced back, the hull flexes a bit but the rigidity of the stringers at the aft end of the keel causes damage like you see in your photos. Check the bottom leading edge of the keel for a repair. Probably a fist sized chunk of lead has been replaced by filler.
 
#24 ·
Is it fair to say that C&C cored deck is more or less needed to be "re-done" sooner or later? I find that some relatively new boats, e.g., boats from the 1980's, the decks may also have been re-done due to wet cores.

If it was re-done, and suppose it was done right, how long would it last? Or it is impossible to estimate?


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