Re-bedding keel previously done with 5200

[FrankLanger]

The 1984 Ericson 30+ that I bought last year had it's keel rebedded and keelbolts re-torqued in 1999--the previous owner records show that it was done using 5200 as the bedding material. The survey noted a hairline crack about 10" in length at the keel/hull joint, which I would like to repair at some point. There was no sign of rust or water seeping out of the crack and the keel bolts look fine from inside the bilge.

The bilge is dry when the boat is resting at the dock, but I get about 2 cupfulls of seawater in the bilge after an afternoon of sailing--I don't know yet if this is coming in through the keel/hull joint or the rudder post or elsewhere (though I suspect it's not the keel/hull joint given that it's dry when at dock, but despite carefully checking seacocks and hoses, I haven't been able to determine the source yet).

The surveyor when I bought the boat a year ago said the 10" crack in the aft keel/hull joint did not look serious and could likely be fixed by gouging out a bit of the crack to enable new caulking to get a grip there, and then re-caulking.

I understand from various sailors that normal maintenance involves re-bedding the keel about every 5 years (though I suspect that very few people do it this often). But given that it has now been about 8 years since it was done on my boat, I have two questions:

1) Would you recommend that I simply re-caulk the slightly cracked area, or should I drop the keel and rebed it to "do the job right"?

2) Is it even possible to drop the keel, given that it was rebedded with 5200 in 1999? I understand that 5200 is a relatively permanent adhesive and difficult to remove. (I know there is a product that helps to loosen it, but I don't think it would be possible to get it into the keel/hull joint to do its job).

I'd appreciate your comments, suggestions and advice.

Frank.

[Maine Sail]

5200 is a totally over rated product and the biggest scam put forth on the uneducated boating public I've ever seen. The ONLY place for 5200 or any product like it is a hull / deck joint and even there I'd use Sikaflex over 5200 because it remains more flexible than 5200. Even a hull to deck joint will flex too much for 5200 over the long term. The product I'd use would be Sikaflex 291 LOT. This product has better flexibility for the expansion / contraction / flex between the lead and fiberglass than does 5200. 5200 is for boatyards who want future repair business or novice boaters who know no differently. I know quite a few of the top quality yards here in Maine use Sikaflex including Lyman Morse & Hinckley and NOT 3M 5200. Sika Flex 291 LOT has a 700% elongation at break while according to 3M 5200 is 350% so 291 LOT is twice as flexible. Flexible is what you need between a fin keel and a flexible fiberglass hull. The sealant does not need to glue the keel on that's why you have keel bolts! It only needs to adhere to the fiberglass and the lead and be FLEXIBLE.

Noting and I repeat NOTHING on a boat is a permanent seal. Trust me I had to re-bed my keel that was originally bedded with 5200. Once the keel bolts were loose they jacked my boat up but the keel was still holding on in certain areas even though it was leaking. After letting it hang for a few days they began trying to seprarate it with oak wedges. No Luck! They actually had to use a sawzall to get my keel off in the end. The problem was when they got about half way through & the weight of the keel literally ripped chunks and delaminated the fiberglass keel stub. They then had to repair that. The keel on that boat was put back together 10 years ago with Sika Flex 291 LOT NOT 3M 5200 and is still bone dry today. The reason it needed to be re-beded in the first place was because it was not flexible enough & after a few years it began leaking! Don't believe me here's what 3M has to say..

"Because 5200 is so strong and its primary use is for permanent applications like those in hull-to-deck bonding, 3M introduced 4200, which is about half as strong and is more suitable for general-purpose applications. “If you want to get [the adhesive] off, go with the 4200, says Dewey."

5200 is one of the few products that will NEVER set foot on my boat Sikaflex is more flexible over time and more than strong enough for ANY boat application including a keel joint. Sikaflex 291 is about the same adhesion as 4200 but far more flexible!! __________________

[FrankLanger]

Halekai36,

Thanks for your detailed reply. In general I agree with you, and would not have used 5200 on the boat either. The difficulty you describe in removing the keel on your boat after it was done with 5200 makes me think that I should not attempt to rebed the keel on my boat at this time, or perhaps ever!

It sounds like maybe I should leave well enough alone, and at the most, recaulk the hairline crack area next time I haul the boat.

On the positive side, it also sounds as if I never have to worry about the keel falling off!!

Thanks again. I would still welcome any additional comments or suggestions.

Frank.

[Faster]

Hi Frank

Looking forward to the new season?

I'd be very tempted to leave it be and deal with the small crack as suggested unless you have reason to believe there is a fundamental problem with the joint seal. It doesn't sound like that is the case.

I've been told that a tenacious 5200 joint can be cut using piano wire stretched between two handles. This is assuming you have room to use it, and of course in the way of the keel bolts this gets more difficult.

Good info from halekai re Sikaflex.

I'd agree to shy away from 5200 unless the intended job will be nothing but absolutely permanent and not subject to any flexing.

But I'd say you can relax on this item.

[sailingdog]

Frank-

Can you post a photo..it would be worth a lot in this case. It could be the hull-keel joint. Sitting at the dock does not flex the hull-keel joint with anywhere near the forces it ezperiences when you're out sailing...

[paulk]

If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT! Goop in the crack sounds like it might last another 10 or so years.

[FrankLanger]

Thanks for your replies. Sailingdog, the only picture I have is in the initial survey, of which I only have a hard copy and no scanner, so I can't post it. But it is as I mentioned above, a hairline crack about 10" long right along the hull/keel joint. While I agree that there are different forces at play on the keel when under sail, the crack seems short enough and only hairline, to make me think that even if it does open a bit, the 5200 that they sealed the joint with should prevent water from coming into the bilge. I will continue to look for other possible causes and seal the joint at next haul-out as the surveyor suggested.

I think I agree with the other posts that I should leave well enough alone, and that especially if I re-caulk that crack, it should be fine. Especially as I only plan to do coastal cruising, generally within sight of land, with no plans for real blue water voyages which might stress the boat more.

Thanks for all your replies!
Frank.

[mhfowle]

Maybe your packing is leaking

[FrankLanger]

Thanks, Mhfowle,
I have a dripless shaft seal, so I don't think it's that, though normally that would have been a very possible cause. But I'll keep looking to see where that water comes from.
Frank.