effectiveness of solar & wind

[chucklesR]

amps x voltage for a specified period of time produce amp hours of use at a specified voltage - that was the context I was speaking in; I don't believe I confused that.

I agree that 80w panels put out 6amps in a perfect world. I've seen 3 out of mine. Unlike the solar stik guys I don't make ridiculous numbers up. I do get about 30 amp hours per day, maybe I'm just not looking at the right time (I think that's nap time around here).

I don't understand why you thought I was confused, your end numbers:

"If you had 62 panels, you'd get 372 amps or 1860 amp-hours @ 13.6 V.
If you convert to 120 V, you're going to get about 210 amp hours @ 120 V or so...ignoring voltage conversion losses and such. If we double it, you'll be getting 420 amp-hours at 120 V." W
ere in line with mine, just I used 12V not 13.6.

Still, 420amp hours at 120v does not run a house in todays world. Those batteries, unless they are super batteries not even concieved of yet, will in fact be dead come morning.

[sailingdog]

you just had the units in the wrong places. btw, they're not mentioning the small cold fusion reactor that they install as part of the panel installation.

[camaraderie]

My guess is that no batteries are involved and that the panels will simply feed into the electrical grid and the grid will need all that can be supplied at any given moment and there will be a net reduction of fossil fuel needed when the sun is out. The statement that 400 homes or 1000 homes or whatever can be powered by the panels is simply one of SCALE....comparing the output in Kilowatts for the panels to the # of KW's that the average house uses. (Divide this number by 22 to get the number of Al Gore houses that would be powered by the panels!)

[hellosailor]

Chuckles, the best way to run the numbers and compare systems is to put everything in kilowatt-hours. And, a household fridge draws much less power than you might think, once you realize that it cycles on/off and uses almost no power for substantial amounts of time. (Especially if you don't go frost-free.)

There are also differences in how you use--or waste--the power generated from solar panels. An MPPT controller will provide a 20-30% power gain, compared to a dumb regulator that simply dumps excess voltage. BIG change in the amount of power you get out. Solar panels are pretty much all built to standards and regulations in the US, if yours are rated for 80W they will put out 80W, plus or minus a 10% manufacturing tolerance, during midday on the bright sunny times of the year. But if that's measured at 20VDC output, and your regulator is knocking that down to 14 VDC? You'll only see 57W in useful power, and that only during a 4-6 hour peak period. Roughly 300watt-hours, which you might see as 20-25 "amp hours". That's all they are rated for--if you follow the conversions, and use a dumb regulator. AFAIK the cheapest MPPTs are going to set you back over $200 though, and that's the new low-priced stuff.

[chucklesR]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

My guess is that no batteries are involved and that the panels will simply feed into the electrical grid and the grid will need all that can be supplied at any given moment and there will be a net reduction of fossil fuel needed when the sun is out. The statement that 400 homes or 1000 homes or whatever can be powered by the panels is simply one of SCALE....comparing the output in Kilowatts for the panels to the # of KW's that the average house uses. (Divide this number by 22 to get the number of Al Gore houses that would be powered by the panels!)

Cam, they are talking about powering cities up - there must be batteries, Tippy Gore isn't going to go without her Alternate Al all night long.

Hellosailor, I have a Xantrex C12 regulator.

I've gotten up in the morning with my 210ah battery bank reading 86% at the worst (about 180 ah remaining) and it normally reads 2pm, balancing the 1-3 amp hours I'm drawing during some of the daylight hours with the evening lights and fans, then the anchor light all night plus my 1ah CPAP running...
All in all, it's not bad.
That's living off the grid.

[sailingdog]

How you know what Tippy Gore uses to power Alternate Al, or that she has one... I don't want to know.

Originally Posted by chucklesR

Cam, they are talking about powering cities up - there must be batteries, Tippy Gore isn't going to go without her Alternate Al all night long.

[hellosailor]

"Cam, they are talking about powering cities up - there must be batteries,"
Chuckles, you've got to think outside the battery box. Batteries are for little folks. When you want to store massive amounts of power, there are better ways to do it. Years ago when Indian Point (nuke) was in discussion, there was also a lot of discussion about hollowing out Storm King (?) mountain and installing giant pumps. At night when there was excess power, they would pump megagallons of water UP into the mountain. During the day, they would let it run out and reverse the pumps as dynamos. Storing the electricity as kinetic energy, no batteries needed.

Never happened though, I think there was a ruckus about how the fish might mind it.

[artbyjody]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

During the day, they would let it run out and reverse the pumps as dynamos. Storing the electricity as kinetic energy, no batteries needed.

Never happened though, I think there was a ruckus about how the fish might mind it.

Hmmm wonder why we in Washington State never thought of that - all of our fish swim upstream (and apparently love it)... but then again environmentalists that do not want to prevent sea lions from gorging on upstream, up-hopping, and otherwise apparently acrobatically inclined, staple of fish commonly referred to as salmon. They would in turn introduce a resolution along with another rider that would prevent such being constructed and take away yet one other off-road vehicle trail.

[chucklesR]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Cam, they are talking about powering cities up - there must be batteries,"
Chuckles, you've got to think outside the battery box. Batteries are for little folks. When you want to store massive amounts of power, there are better ways to do it. Years ago when Indian Point (nuke) was in discussion, there was also a lot of discussion about hollowing out Storm King (?) mountain and installing giant pumps. At night when there was excess power, they would pump megagallons of water UP into the mountain. During the day, they would let it run out and reverse the pumps as dynamos. Storing the electricity as kinetic energy, no batteries needed.

Never happened though, I think there was a ruckus about how the fish might mind it.

Yep, you have to love the scale of that thought though don't you.

I wasn't actually thinking batteries, should have said storage.

[mallo]

Hi I have been reading this thread with interest, not that we have solar but just the way things are going, I remember on a visit to the barrage not fat from us hearing that when France had a surplus of electricity the would pump water into the river Rance to store extra energy have a look at Rance tidal power plant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
It’s a very interesting area, however the people running the plant control the tides inside the river Rance and a few times the dingy has been well high and dry!!!!
Its quite interesting also because this was all built a long time ago and still well used!!