effectiveness of solar & wind

[Valiente]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

The Honda genny is cheaper than a good solar setup or wind generator... but the fuel cost over the long run makes it far more expensive.

This is correct, of course. But you have to consider a couple of things: frequency of use and availability of fuel. I will likely always carry ten gallons of gasoline for the outboard (which is enough fuel to cover a fairly significant expedition to and from the shore or to go exploring nearby sheltered bays).

The other consideration is that ideally, the generator is a backup to a backup, which is the solar recharging of the batteries as an alternative to the altenator. Meaning, I'll need cloudy, hot days with heavy drawdowns and no spare fuel to run the diesel to bother rigging the Honda to charge the batteries.

I like the Honda for foreseeable heavy AC use that is better not handled by the inverter, like for power sanding, drilling or even a weekly run with the Shop-Vac (I like Shop-Vacs of the small 1.5 gallon size because they are like portable bilge pumps for hard to dry spaces). They are also portable in the extreme, and if I trade services on a small island, it's probably going to be as a courtesy if I show up to drill down a tin roof bringing my own power in return for a 20 kilo tuna.

But that's just me. Others have a different mix of energy use and capacities. Me, I'm into flexibility, not total raw amperage.

[Brezzin]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Brezzin...you're getting AC/DC mixed up I think. The Honda 1000 operating specs are:
AC Output 120V
1000W max.(8.3A)
900W rated (7.5A)

900Watts= 120V x 7.5 AC
900Watts= 12V x 75 DC

The A/C output of the alternator used to drive the battery charger on board will yield a 75amp DC current (with some loss due to conversion efficiency). Remember the 10 x rule....multiply AC amps times 10 to get DC amps. (US ONLY!!)

Yep your right. the Genny has DC output of 8 amps. I didn't even think of using the AC throught the charger.

thanks

[Cruisingdad]

All,

I connected and got all the panels put in this weekend. With the exception of putting a few more screws in to hold the panels down, I am done. I should be able to give you real-life on what they put out by next week. I hooked the panels up last night (so as not to get bit... which I got bit anyways). Thus, I do not have the real-life for you yet.

My budget is somewhere around 150-180 amps day. That is real life. For those of you that have come in considerably smaller, I can only assume you are not running 12 v refrigeration?? No microwave or coffemaker or something. I think you cruise differently than I do or are a lot more efficent (which is very likely). I wanted to be fairly off-the-grid. Here is what I put in, what is cost, and what I can expect. Hopefully it will help many of you as you budget out your cruising money and electrical budget. Maybe this will help many of you make intelligent decisions on what will work best for you.

Arch: Why aluminum? Two reasons, cost and weight. THe arch I had built (I will get you pictures soon) is "overbuilt" as has been mentioned. The folks that built it build them for offshore fishing boats and tend to overbuild versus underbuild. It is a "double" 2 inch frame with connections. It is polished aluminum, not brushed, thus looks like SS except at the bends (and you have to get close to see that). Most of the rest of my boat is SS, with the exception of the toe rail and mast/boom. The arch cost me about $3200-$3500, installed.

To give you a cost comparrison, Valiant wanted about $10,000 to build the same arch. Weight would have been high, not to mention the cost. One man can lift the arch on my boat. It is somewhere in that 100lbs area, without anything on it. Another benefit of going larger aluminum versus smaller steel is the wire runs. Depending on the panels and the system, you will be fishing a pretty large wire down those legs. You have to run one at each end (or two down the pipe). Think series install. You may also have your wind gen going down those tubes which is 12 and will require a larger wire AWG, likely 4 gauge.

The panels. I have 4-Kyocera 130's, giving me a theoretical 520Watts. They weigh about 30lbs a piece, I guess. The KC-130's already have the diodes so a seperate install is not neccessary. Install is VERY easy. They are set up to be opened upside down. You take out the 4 screws holding the "flap" closed, and it latches open. The screws do not come out. Access is easy and straight forward. Only caution: Before you go to hook them up, get some extra screws that connect your lugs. Unless you are a better mecahnic than I am, Triton will get a few of them. Remember you are hooking these things up upside down in the sailboat yoga. I budegted 150 amps/day with this array. Cost of panels is around $650-$700/piece.

The charger. Outback MX60. It is too cool for me to go into too much explanation on, but for that size array, I cannot imagine a better controller. It is solar only. I am not aware of a controller to run both wind and sun. I might still keep them seperate for redundancy. Hooking up the outback is so simple you will not have any problems. Only consideration is to make sure you get the battery temp sensor. It is sold seperate. It is worth the $30.

The only negative of the Outback is the array size. I think you have to get somewhere in the 400 watts or better to realize its efficency. I had a salesman tell me this that sold both the Outback and Blue Sky. He said the BS was better for small arrays, the Outback for large ones. I have not used a BS, I think Sailingdog does. WOrth asking him about it. If you go with a small array, I do not think you will use an Outback and it is cost prohibitive. Cost of Outback is around $450-650.

Batteries. We wrote up a small thread about this on Cruisers Forum. Might be worth taking a look at as you consider your batteries. AGM's charge faster than wets, but they are not exponentially faster. Still, there are so many other positives with agms, I cannot imagine buying anything else for cruising. I went with 4 Lifeline AGM's (4D). That gives me about 840 AH. It is hooked into a Prosine 2.0 Inverter/charger. The Prosine mandates 4/0 minimum up to 350 mcm depending on the wire run. Luckily my run was small. 4/0 wire and the lugs are pretty much special order only. I went through Cobra Wire. The Prosine comes with its own temp sensor and is an easy install. Moving the cables (4/0) through very confined spaces is very difficult. You will also need a 600 amp rated switch and a fuse block (I used a 300 amp fuse).

This system is all paralleled together. I have a seperate bank with its own independent charger and a small Optima. It can be pulled into or out of the system, as neccessary. It is pretty much just there as an emergency backup and will not be used except otherwise. Cost of batteries is about $1800. Cost of Charger is about $1300. Cost of 4/0 wire and lugs, 300-400 (on the low side). The fuseblock and switch will run you about $200 or so online, as I recall.

Wind Generator. The AirX has a built in charge controller. I have everything here to hook it up but have been slow to do wo until winter was over (do not want it walking off the docks). The AirX is a direct wire. (EBS001, not sure which model AirX you have, but the new ones have in theory fixed some of the regulation and noise problems). You have to fuse and run heavy gauge wire. I am running 4 gauge (again) with a 50 amp fuse. At an average of 12 mph wind speed, they say you will get 70 amps/day. Cost of wind is about 800, plus about 200 in wire, plus several hundred in switches, bushings, connectors, pole, sound insulation and fuses.

Diesel Generator. I have used boat a Fisher Panda and a Mastervolt 3.5. My current is a MV 3.5kw. I think I like it better than the FP. Very user friendly and a lot of information at the panel. It just sips the fuel and is tied in with the main engine. Cost is somewhere in the $15,000 range.

Each one of these systems work together and independent of each other. The Xantrex, solar and wind will all work at the same time, which will be beneficial in saving money on charging batteries at the dock (which is a very small $$ anyways). But, Nigel Calder reccomends getting off of city power if you have a green power source.

Let me know what questions you have. I will answer.

- CD

[camaraderie]

Great, detailed write-up CD...we ended up with a lot of the same approaches...I just put my passive stuff on one boat and the active stuff on the current one...You've got the best of both worlds!! Keep us posted on results!!

[Cruisingdad]

Here is the install of the Xanrex invert/chg 2.0, along with the 4/0 wire, switches, Lifeline batteries, etc...

[Cruisingdad]

You see the size of the yellow and red wire?? That is 4/0. That is the minimum. Very expensive right now. West Marine wants $20/foot. I got it for around $8/foot at Cobra. Lugs are high too and you will need to find a place to rent 4/0 crimpers. Also, if your circle is more than about 20-30 feet, you will jump into 250 or 350 mcm. Again, look at that wire and imagine running it through your boat before you commit yourself to that approach.

- CD

[Cruisingdad]

Thanks Cam.

- CD

[mikeedmo]

Great set-up.... are you close enough to Palm Beach County to replicate on my boat!! I'm using a few of your examples in discussions with my mooring neighbor from Trans-Marine as I settle on wind (he sells 4winds and airx - uses 2 4wind red barons and 3 165 sharp solar panels) and solar. Thanks again for the advice.

[Cruisingdad]

Mike,

My boat is at Cedar Mills right now (where they make Valiant). You will have to hop a plane.

I have not heard a lot of discussions on the Sharp panels. Do your research. There are many, many vendors of panels and I am not sure they are all completely truthful on what their output is. It is easy to fool perspective buyers. An easy way to do it is take the outputs at very low temps... or put the panels in a room with beyond natural sunlight... etc, etc. In general, as with most things in life, you get what you pay for. The panels sold through west marine (sunsei) have been written up as being fairly truthful. I know cruisers who use them.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...allpartial/0/0

I went with Kyocera. They are on sale right now with N Arizona (as is the Outback). Here is a good site and a link to their product(s). Kyocera are very good panels.

http://store.solar-electric.com/kc-120.html

You may be able to jump up to the 160s, depending on the size you have available to you on your boat. I almost did, but the price/watt (because of the sale pric I got them) did not make up for it. If I am still short and need to make up some more power, I can add another panel or two very easily. Easy expansion now.

As far as the wind gen... I have not heard blazing good reviews on any of them, honestly. But if you look above to my cost comparisson, it is by far the cheapest method to charge your batteries... short of doing nothing. However, unless you look like a S California wind farm, you will NOT get enough out of wind to satisfy your power requirements and will need to supplement.

Don't forget on the wind you will likely be running 4 gauge wire for each one. Other than the cost and weight, that stuff is not a lot of fun to work with (better than 4/0 though!!!).

- CD

[PBzeer]

CD - if you pole mount the Air-X, you're looking at another $400 for their pole setup (rubber bushings at all attachment points, I have no vibration to the hull.) On mine, I was able to go with 8ga, and also used a 50amp fuse block. I also have mine wired direct to the house bank, since if I'm using the wind generator, I'm not running the engine, and so have the selector on house (2) anyway.

I also went with the AGM's, though I got mine through Port Supply. Aside from cost, the reason for choosing them over the Lifelines was that Lifelines have to be returned to the manufacturer, and not a dealer, if there are any problems with them. I'm only using 3 Group 31's though, for a total of 315 ah. I do have 12v refridgeration, but that is the only high draw 12v I have.

I took out a 1500 watt inverter/charger and replaced it with a 20 amp Truecharge, and use a 400 watt portable inverter for the laptop. I don't use the A/C unless hooked to the grid, nor the W/H.