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  #961 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
The payback in solar panels is often the silence and the freedom from having to run a fossil-fuel-based, noisy and smelly generator or engine. It also can help prolong your engine life, since you can eliminate much of the low-load recharging operation of the engine.
Exactly. The perception of how effective it is has to take into account a whole range of factors that are hard to quantify, like "all the hours I DIDN'T run the engine at anchor", or the abovementioned quiet, or even the simple fact that sun beating down on a solar panel isn't beating down on your deck or into your cockpit.

I think they are simply "trickle charge toys" on smaller boats, but if you have the decks for them, or you can stand to put in a purpose-built arch, they are very much a part of not only an ecological approach to charging, but an economical one, as well, particularly when used in conjunction with that large alternator, a wind gen and a portable genset. Nothing beats having the space and buoyancy to have a large battery bank, though.
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  #962 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2007
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You know... this thread is getting to be as redundant and repetitive (not to mention you're repeating yourselves) as the Dems v Reps thread.



Did I mention that you're all repeating yourselves?
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"... the only matter of consequence before me is what I will do with my alloted time. I can remain on shore, paralyzed with fear, or I can raise my sails and dip and soar in the breeze." - Richard Bode, First you have to row a little boat (pg. 94)
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  #963 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2007
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You know what gets me is all the attention being paid to solar with very little to wind. As I've said before, my wind gen gave me 2x as much power on average than my 160W worth of solar panels and took up very little acreage and yet it seems that most people look at solar first and wind is only added as a secondary consideration. You see lots of boats with solar and no wind...but not very many with wind and no solar. Maybe I should invent a "wind stik" and sell it for $3000!! (g)
I don't get it.
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  #964 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2007
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Cam: Wind power seems like the obvious choice on a boat designed to reap the wind. I'm a big fan myself, having lived the past four years solely by wind and solar power. But.... I can see why boaters would shy away from wind power, and I'd say it's dangerous to rely on wind power alone. Some reasons why I'd be leery:

1) Turbines need clean air to work well. Turbulence reduces output and destroys them mechanically. Winds aloft are much more powerful than those near decks. So the obvious place for a turbine is at the masthead. But even a small turbine weighs 30 lbs or so -- that's a lot of weight aloft.

2) A sailboat turbine needs to be small and lightweight. But small turbines produce very little energy -- output is roughly proportional to swept area, and a 4' diameter turbine like the AirX won't really produce more than 1 kWh per day. (I know AirX owners living in a Class 6 wind area who got 0.75 kWh/day, on the odd occasion the things were working.) The manufacturer's claims of 400 peak watts should not be used in calculating daily or monthly power output. Since output~swept area=r^2, a turbune half as large can produce at most one quarter the power. Downsizing quickly renders them toys.

3) Additionally, a boat-sized turbine generally has a small 'can', or rotor-stator arrangement, usually employing permanent magnets and laminations. The power curve flattens very quickly. To compensate, such turbines use very light, sharply-tapered blades with high tip-speed ratios (up to 13.5 times windspeed.) These airfoils sacrifice solidity and have a very narrow window of efficiency. Wider, slower blades are better, but they require a much heftier alternator. Higher RPMs also = noise, vibration, and shorter life. Small alternators spun fast is a proven recipe for ruin.

4) Small turbines are prone to damage in sustained high winds when the coils melt. Also, when batteries are full, a turbine needs someplace to put the excess juice. Letting it freewheel is bad for the mechanics; ought to held under load at all times. Bigger turbys use variable blade pitch; not realistic on a thirty-pound unit. So some turn out of the wind and stall the blades; others use alternating braking. The first method (furling) causes hysteresis, noise, and ungodly fatigue on the mechanicals; the second method (shorting the leads) inevitably burns up the stator.

5) So it's not a question of IF your small turbine will fail, but WHEN. The likeliest answer is "100 miles from Antigua". They are brute simple to repair, but you had better carry a full turbine's worth of spare parts on your boat, doubling up on rectifiers, stators, and bearings. That money and weight would buy some nice PV panels.

6) A rapidly-spinning propeller near the deck of a heaving boat full of tired people and many ropes. Paging Isadora Duncan....

7) Some people would argue the above list recommends a Vertical Axis Wind Turbine, like the ten thousand variants on the Darrius or Savonius designs. But VAWTs are lousy for generating electricity and always will be. Every two years, someone comes out with a better mousetrap that stands on its end and goes round and round; and every one turns out to be a flop. As sailors, people here can easily understand why (50% beam reach, 25% beating, 25% DDW). Japan, Germany, and GE have some really good engineers. They build and install three-bladed, horizontal-axis wind turbines. If there was a better way to catch mice, they would know -- and sell it.

Solar panels on a sailboat are problematic, but so are small wind turbines. Asking inherently underweight and overstressed machines to survive in a gyrating salt-water environment is a stiff request. I love windpower, but here's a few pix showing why I wouldn't favor it over solar:




Nine major failures in less than four years. And this is a robust 8.2' turbine, rather heftier than most boat-sized ones. (Tho if I was was buying one, it would be similar to the D400 or Rutland: stout little 5-bladed HAWTs. Sacrifice swept area for solidity.)
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Last edited by bobmcgov; 09-13-2007 at 05:49 PM.
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  #965 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2007
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CD can you send me your setup for those panels? I'd like to look into those for my 32 footer... if we don't sell it we are going to use it for the big trip I am planning later this fall. If you've been running on them for 3 months now, I bet you've saved about 10,000 in electricity bills already from what guys tell me about your ship! hahaha!

Seriously, can you send me those specs? I'd love to pour over them.
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  #966 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2007
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My initial setup, as it stands right now:

4 Kyocera 130watt panels, wired in series, mounted on top of a solar arch. THese are fed with 4 gauge wire into a Outback Mx60 MPPT charge controller. My output last weekend was over 200 ah. I have an additional 2 panels setting in my garage at home, waiting to be installed. I have not gotten around to it yet becuase the current setup is more than sufficient.

The only thing the solar does not run is the Air Conditioner. I have a Xantrex Prosine 2.0 Inverter/charger for any 110 needs.

These all feed into four Lifeline AGM 4-d batteries, which alone provide 840 ah, or 420ah at a 50% discharge. That house bank is charged with the Xantrex prosine. I also have a seperate starter bank of a 1000 CCA Optima (I think it is 1000). THis bank is charged by a seperate Xantrex charger and is completely independent of the main bank in every fashion. With the flip of a 1-2-both switch, I can run the boat from the house bank, the starter bank, or both. Same with starting the engine... just the flip of a switch.

Did all that make sense?

- CD
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  #967 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2007
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I think everyone should have at least one solar panel. Even if you use tons of power and one solar panel isn't nearly enough it still has one benefit - when you turn all your junk off and leave the boat the panel will, eventually, recharge your bank. It takes a little bit of the worry out of leaving the boat because you know that your bank is going to charge back up and stay in a charged state no matter how long you are gone.
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  #968 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2007
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Bob...I appreciate your comments even while disagreeing with many of them as they apply to actual use on cruising boats (as opposed to units designed for permanent use on land). I was getting an average of 60ah's a day from my 4 winds generator (roughly 650 watts), which was quite quiet and safe and we never had a single repair in 3 years of daily use. Practical Sailor did a test on small and large generators recently and the large did much better and the SSCA member surveys returned the KISS and 4winds as the favored products. I personally had all the solar I could fit on my 44 footer without an arch (2x80watt panels) and still got twice as much from the wind gen and I WOULD have both again but if I had to choose, I would choose the wind since it gave me more.
The real key is to get USABLE output in 8knots of wind through 20 knots of wind and this requires large blades. Most cruisers shut down their wind gens or feather them in 25kts. plus so destruction is not an issue...PRODUCTION is.
I'm not saying wind-gens can't break...but the good ones are virtually trouble free, I used my occasional excess wind power to heat my hot water without running the engine, weighs only 19 lbs instead of an ARCH and panels etc.. $1899 complete with regulator, mounting pole &kit.
I guess my point is that solar is "sexy" right now and you may get a lot more bang for your buck with the wind option.
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  #969 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2007
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Gee...never thought of my house as 'Sexy' ... the boat is, well, another story...
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Old 09-14-2007
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THOUGHT YOU GUYS WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THIS INSIGHT BY SA!!!

QUOTE FROM THE AFOC THREAD....

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Well, it's ninety seven pages and those assholes over in Solar World have finally gotten around to sex. Which puts them one evolutionary notch below Paris Hilton. Some moron, who can bite me at his earliest convenience, re-started the thread and his twin juvenile thought that yet another interjection on the merits of wind power would be sufficient to return a measure of sanity to the previous ninety six pages of beanwater. The moron had malice aforethought, the twin idiot savant is in sailnet denial. If you missed it earlier in this thread, sailnet denial is when you actually think that if you make just one more post they will actually understand and come around to your way of thinking, thanking you for the illumination. We all suffer from it somewhat but, and you know who you are, we should resist the impulses it engenders.
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