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Hello sleuths - Can you tell me why my rudder broke off at sea?
I finally got my 2003 43" Jeanneau hauled today to replace the rudder. The solid metal stock broke off right at the through-hull and after dropping it and doing a quick bit of cleaning this is what the remnant looked like:
There are no sharp edges, but I have been in a marina for the past 4 weeks waiting for the replacement part to arrive. I was surprised at the copper buildup and my first thoughts are that I might have an AC power issue and that the copper has been plated from the surrounding bottom ablative coat.
Cam ... the shaft will flex right up to the point where stresses can no longer be dissipated along its length, and that is the point where it will fail, the point where it is held fast, the bearing or bushing, the fulcrum ... get a piece of wire and you can bend it all day but throw in a thumb as a fulcrum and you know exactly where it will break. Takes time, but it will fatigue and fail.
Not saying that's for certain mind you, just a possibility ... periodic lateral or fore and aft stresses over time, galvanic corrosion, prior repair or damage, defective steel, poor design, whale strike, dumb luck, bad karma, or a combination of the above ... who knows.
Bob's curious ... Zanshin, get yer wallet out ... inquiring minds and all that! Until then, Bob's gonna keep his rudder fastened on BOTH ends ...
can you give us the measurments of the shaft as it realates to the rudder? It looks to me too that it must have broke off inside the rudder. Not sure of the rudder construction on a Jeanneau but is it possible that it corroded at the frame?
That is truly bizzar but I'm sure someone out there can explain it and I'm looking forward to hearing about it.
The rudder broke off just a couple of millimeters inside the hull, not inside the fibreglass rudder. I've spent over $10k on getting this rudder here and installed quickly so I'm not particularly motivated to pay even more for shipping (the remnant probably weighs 30Kg) and analysis, particularly as there is nobody for me to recoup these extra costs from. "Undisclosed repair" doesn't show up anywhere in my purchase contract and the surveyor wouldn't have been able to see the damage while he inspected the boat. If the rudder was removed to replace the bearings it might be possible to make a case that the seller acted negligently but I doubt I would see a penny.
I just realized that I've got to pay for over a month at one of the pricier marinas in the area as well plus the shipping from FLA to here, so the grand total is probably closer to $15K for this fiasco. Plus my hands are all gooey from applying the first coat of antifouling paint over the primer so I'm not in a particularly good mood today
Zan...As they say in Brooklyn...faggedaboudit and go sailing! Before you star the circumnav though it might be a wise idea to have the new one checked out incase it is a structural problem.
Zan, I can understand your frustration. Any chance of putting the new rudder through an X-ray machine (airport style security baggage scanner would do fine, available in many US schools). See if the solid shaft goes all the way.
Hope the new one is made better than the old one.
We understand where you are coming from.... And I bet the insurance adjuster said it wasn't insured/covered either.... Funny how they seem to get out from under paying off on those premiums that we have been paying all these years.
The rudder broke off just a couple of millimeters inside the hull, not inside the fibreglass rudder. I've spent over $10k on getting this rudder here and installed quickly so I'm not particularly motivated to pay even more for shipping (the remnant probably weighs 30Kg) and analysis, particularly as there is nobody for me to recoup these extra costs from.
Just read your entire story in the other thread - you definitely took care of the situation properly. It's not often you see drogues on board and ready to deploy.
As a previous charterer in BVI, I got an impression that people care very little about those boats. They do run aground constantly and, considering the rudder damage, I would not be surprized if this one had hit the rocks hard a time or two. That plus some corrosion would certainly contribute to the problem.
If the rudder was damaged It t may have bent the shaft.
Whats Bobs opinion of straightening a shaft with heat. or in a press?
maybe the combo of the grounding and the repair caused the fracture.
Either way zan I have to agree with cam on this one. just bad luck.
I doubt it happens to you again.
I read the entire thread and did not see any discussion of how the boat was used. That's the difference between boats that are designed for off shore use and those that are designed for coastal. I had this discussion with Bob Perry recently at the Annapolis Sail Boat show and he indicated that the size and quality of the rudder stock on a Catalina 42 as an example which the sales people will tell you is rated to go offshore is not adequate for off shore use. That's why Valiants, Shannons, etc. are priced much higher. I agree a failure this soon is unusual and may have been related to prior damage or an inferior grade of stainless. You should have the metal analyzed. Ben., Jean, Cat, Hunter have to save money somewhere to offer lower prices. The rudderstock may have been where they cut corners.
soul searcher ... nix the heat, uncertain of alloy and heat treatment, you could make matters worse ... in the old days they used to peen shafts straight ... not difficult ... I've peened cold rolled shafts but not stainless although I see no reason why in theory it wouldn't work for stainless ... press? sure, if you have a good screw type it'd be easy ...
Bottom line, for saving a buck and general fartin' 'round the stock tank, I'd give straightning a try, hell, you ain't buildin' a watch. Circumnavigation on an iffy shaft, well, what's your life worth?
Best thing Zanshin could do to insure he never loses another rudder is to buy a spare ... (15 grand? damn, I'm gonna move to the coast and get some of that! Farmer **** just don't pay. Never knew sailors were soooo rich.)
After looking in detail at some of the quotes I received I opted to put away a fixed amount each month in lieu of insurance. But if I recall the one contract correctly they would have paid me about $1300 for this incident. Then probably increased my rates or cancelled my policy as a "high risk" one Actually, since I singlehand the insurance companies would have happily accepted my premiums but probably wouldn't have paid out anything.
I just got another bill today, over $500 to ship the rudder from Florida to here by boat (still, less than a third of what Jeanneau charged me for air freight and packing). It turns out that U.S. customs is slow, so the consolidator had to pay my customs duty (it would have taken 1 week in "bond") plus expedited handling fees to get it, then I had to pay customs again here to get the rudder in.
I'm normally not too money oriented but in this case it seems that everyone has used the situation to extract maximum money with 2 very notable exceptions:
1. Speedy's (a ferry service). They have a twin engined fishing charter boat that they used for the tow and charged me a very, very reasonable fee.
2. "The Workbench", Virgin Gorda. They helped organize, expedite shipment, follow-up, recommend and finally installed the rudder for a mere pittance. I've also been watching the work they are doing on other boats here in the yard and am very impressed.
The surveyor recommended that I contact a metallurgist as well. I'll talk with the Workbench tomorrow to see if they have machining to cut out just the break point and a couple of inches so that I can have just that part sent to a lab.
Along the lines of Bob's thinking, I'd be wondering how well the rudder stock was turning in her bearings. Prolonged binding, even minor, would cause a localized hot spot and exacerbate corrosion.
After looking in detail at some of the quotes I received I opted to put away a fixed amount each month in lieu of insurance. But if I recall the one contract correctly they would have paid me about $1300 for this incident. Then probably increased my rates or cancelled my policy as a "high risk" one Actually, since I singlehand the insurance companies would have happily accepted my premiums but probably wouldn't have paid out anything.
I guess if you are not US-based that is true. I had good experience with BoatUS - I lost keel wings on one of my previous boats (due to striking underwater object, may be that made a difference, I don't know). They paid the bill, which was very fortunate as it was of that same scale as yours - and this was for a much smaller boat (the amount of repairs was darn near close to it's value). Moreover, they put me in touch with a local surveyor and he figured it all out for me - which at that time was imperative, as I did not know where to go and what to do (it's been 7 or 8 years since, I learnt a thing or two). They didn't raise my rate much (or at all) either.
Of course YMMV and all cases are different, but not all insurance is useless
I cant tell much from the picture. Your shaft may have been failing for months/years and propogating a crack that finally grew till it would no longer support the stress of the rudder. Once a flaw exists it will propogate. The combination of rotational and lateral stress on steel breaks it over time. That's why motors attached to fixed rotating equipment (like pumps) have "flexible" couplings in the line.
The combination or rotational and lateral stresses will eventually break a shaft. Yours broke right at the suport point where the lateral stresses peak.
Every time a spade breaks lose someone looks for a corrosion reason. I've seen many equipment shafts that failed due to improper alignment and stress fractured, which is what I think you have there.
Zanshin, the pictures mean nothing to my inexperienced eyes but I'd BET that to someone in the business, that is a textbook illustration of some particular failure mode.
Take the weekend off, deal with higher priorities, and maybe Monday see if there are some online resources that look like they might be willing to just eyeball the picture and point you in the right direction.
If there's any type of reference library near you, they may have a reference book on metal fatigue and failures with pics to compare. Or perhaps there's something likle that on the web? Or there's any type of naval yard or elevator shaft repair outfit, where there are welders who have seen this before. Elevator shaft rollers and printing press rollers are both examples of high strength stainless rollers that are welded and refinished in normal use, folks in those trades often know specialty welders.
Heck, maybe someone at the NHTSA or a similar accident investigation agency would be willing to simply respond to an email saying "Please Sir, can you point me in the right direction?" And if nothing else, maybe you can turn up an email contact to a metallurgy department at some university. Or--there are forums for welders and machinists! Someone at one of those is bound to see meaning in that photo.
It most certainly does not look like the typical "this is a metal bar, it got bent and broke" that I've seen.
The real scary part of all this is the cost of repair, $15K that is 25% of the cost of my intended boat. Surely a rudder could have been sourced locally; I doubt an insurance provider would have looked for a cheaper option, not.
cockeyedbob in the old days they used to peen shafts straight ... not difficult ... I've peened cold rolled shafts but not stainless although I see no reason why in theory it wouldn't work for stainless ... press? sure said:
In the old days shafts were made of bronze, nice malleble stuff. Not a good Idea on stainless, it fatiges in about one and a half cycles. Makes an extraordinarily straight and flat break too!
Iv'e seen literaly dozens of S/S prop shafts snap (my office, when I used to work, was in a high volume boatyard, and I hung around all the boatyards here) and less numerically, rudder shaft logs. If it is pitted (shallow or deep) if it is bent.... replace it... it aint worth the effort to mess with it, it's gonna break. Bronze or Monel doesnt share those caracteristics, bends like a pretzel.
Let me put in my two sents worth. Having some experience wth stainless in ocean invironment the crevice corrosion combined with torsional fatigue is my bet.
However, I thind I would very concerned about the subsequent deposition of copper on the shaft. I believe you've got some rather strong stray electrical currents eminating either from your boat, the dock, or one of your neighbors. Whatever you do stay out of the water and figure out where the electrical to water connection is. Also check the rest of the metal on you boat for corrosion.
HelloSailor - that is some excellent advice; I had though about sending it to a technical university with a plea for some advice, but you've opened up a lot of other alternatives.
Giuletta - I normally would have to agree with you, but perhaps the SS bar stock came from somewhere else.
SimonV - a lot of the charges were due to the fact that I wanted the rudder both quickly and shipped to a remote destination. The rudder itself was $2600, everything else was air freight, expedited handling, customs and vat (for 2 countries!!!!) and so on. I think if I had not been in a hurry and close to a major port the shipping & handling would only have been about $500 in total. If you are really interested, I can get the invoices and do a line-by-line explanation.
Waltpratt - I was put back into the water a 7am this morning. But I will start another thread on trying to diagnose electrical problems.
If it is pitted (shallow or deep) if it is bent.... replace it... it aint worth the effort to mess with it, it's gonna break. Bronze or Monel doesnt share those caracteristics, bends like a pretzel.
Aye Dewey, Bob agrees with you completely!
I assure you, if a man walks into my shop with a bent shaft, please no innuendo, regardless of material or purpose he's going to get an honest assessment without any song and dance. If I can fix it, I will, and If I can't or if I don't think it's worthwhile or safe, well, I won't shine him on just to make a buck.
Given that it is copper that is plating out... I believe the current source would have to be a bronze through hull or other fitting made of bronze.
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