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Glassed in keel bolts

4K views 16 replies 5 participants last post by  mpraca 
#1 · (Edited)
This spring I had my Sun Odissey 36.2 hauled out for the second time since I bought her and I had to deal again with a feature that continues to puzzle me. The keelbolts are completely encapsulated in glass, which would be a great idea if corrosion only could penetrate from the top. Unfortunately The whole keel has had corrosion problems that initiated from the keel/hull interface. The first time I had to grind and epoxy 40% of the keel, and two years later I had again to address some corrosion areas. The biggest problem is the pocket at the top of the keel that is cutout to accomodate a small bilge portruding from the flat bottom hull. There is a space around the boxlike bilge that was originally filled with corrugatedd cardboard (!? what were they thinking???) and since the pocket in the metal is open on the port side and closed on the opposite it is almost impossible to clean and dry. So after trying to finish from the outside with glass and epoxy two years ago, I now found a huge blisterlike shape developing and I had again to try to clean it and glass it in, with the prospect that it will be forever part of the routine when hauling out.
The issue that bothers me is that with encapsulated keelbotls that I cannot inspect, and corrosion problems starting from the joint, I don't know how long this system will keep the keel in place until I loose it without any warning signs.
Anybody got any clue what the designers were thinking on an otherwise well thought out boat?
 
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#2 ·
mpraca said:
This spring I had my Sun Odissey 36.2 hauled out for the second time since I bought her and I had to deal again with a feature that continues to puzzle me. The keelbolts are completely encapsulated in glass, which would be a great idea if corrosion only could penetrate from the top. Unfortunately The whole keel has had corrosion problems that initiated from the keel/hull interface. The first time I had to grind and epoxy 40% of the keel, and two years later I had again to address some corrosion areas. The biggest problem is the pocket at the top of the keel that is cutout to accomodate a small bilge portruding from the flat bottom hull. There is a space around the boxlike bilge that was originally filled with corrugatedd cardboard (!? what were they thinking???) and since the pocket in the metal is open on the port side and closed on the opposite it is almost impossible to clean and dry. So after trying to finish from the outside with glass and epoxy two years ago, I now found a huge blisterlike shape developing and I had again to try to clean it and glass it in, with the prospect that it will be forever part of the routine when hauling out.
The issue that bothers me is that with encapsulated keelbotls that I cannot inspect, and corrosion problems starting from the joint, I don't know how long this system will keep the keel in place until I loose it without any warning signs.
Anybody got any clue what the designers were thinking on an otherwise well thought out boat?
It is a French boat... probably had French designers... ;)
 
#4 ·
Could you post a photo of the bilge/box setup? I'm having trouble picturing it and why they would set it up that way... Unfortunately, keel bolts, IMHO, should not be encapsulated—they should be easily and clearly accessible.
 
#5 ·
sailingdog said:
Could you post a photo of the bilge/box setup? I'm having trouble picturing it and why they would set it up that way... Unfortunately, keel bolts, IMHO, should not be encapsulated-they should be easily and clearly accessible.
I'm attaching an image of the keel as it came out of the water. It is not visible but the patch mid point along the joint is the glassed area behind which is the bilge. The problem is that on the other side of the keel the bilge is not accessible, meaning that there is a pocket in the metal with a wall in the back. That is almost impossible to clean and dry before glassing over the exposed part. As you can see that promotes infiltration which in this case ran along the hole joint.
I am wondering if there is something I can inject around the bilge that will seal the interface with the keel and stop the corrosion action that I think is starting from the inside.
 

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#6 ·
I don't understand the cardboard thing. I would think a bead of caulking around the outside and inside seam would seal it. Could treat the pocket in the keel with epoxy. I don't see any need to treat the keel bolts, although they could be sealed too.

What yard are you in? I might be able to meet you there and help come up with some ideas. I am planning on buying a Jeanneau so I am interested in their issues.
 
#7 ·
UGh... I don't like the looks of that keel-hull join... If you get a chance, post a picture of the inside.
 
#8 ·
Gene T said:
I don't understand the cardboard thing. I would think a bead of caulking around the outside and inside seam would seal it. Could treat the pocket in the keel with epoxy. I don't see any need to treat the keel bolts, although they could be sealed too.

What yard are you in? I might be able to meet you there and help come up with some ideas. I am planning on buying a Jeanneau so I am interested in their issues.
Thanks for your interest, but this was a few weeks ago. The boat is back in the water. For clarity this picture is from two years ago. Back then I sealed the joint with 3M 5200 and that part was good after two years. I think I have pictures of the work being done this year but unfortunately I haven't been able to find them. I'll come back if I find them.
 
#9 ·
sailingdog said:
UGh... I don't like the looks of that keel-hull join... If you get a chance, post a picture of the inside.
Here is the look from inside. As the image shows the small bilge is inside the keel. What I am not able to show is that the keel pocket fot the bilge is only open on the port side, so it's very hard to clean out the space and fill with some sealant. Besides, that space was filled with corrugated cardboard which absorbs water and makes cleaning even harder. Any atempt to clean and seal I think is hopeless.
 

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#10 ·
It looks like the only place for water to get into the keel joint would be at the top of the keel to the hull bottom, or about 1 inch below the opening in the sump. Sealing there should be sufficient to prevent any water from getting in there. I don't understand the cardboard thing. There shouldn't be anything like that. Whatever it is it should be removed.
 
#11 ·
Ugh... you need someone with long arms and small hands to fix this problem... A chimpanzee would be ideal... What the hell were they thinking?

Also, why glass over the bolts, if they are inside the boat.... if you ever have to tighten them, you have to get rid of the glass. I think the real problem is that the hull-keel join isn't tightly sealed, as the bolts have loosened or something has compressed-and that is why you're having such a tough time sealing the area.

What I would recommend is that you un-encapsulate the damn bolts and tighten up on them after cleaning, sanding and re-bedding the hull-keel joint with 3m 5200 or a good polysulfide sealant. Then, after tightening up the bolts, I would recommend you glass over the hull-keel join on the outside of the boat. If it leaks after that, the water is coming from someplace else... ;)
 
#12 ·
Gene T said:
It looks like the only place for water to get into the keel joint would be at the top of the keel to the hull bottom, or about 1 inch below the opening in the sump. Sealing there should be sufficient to prevent any water from getting in there. I don't understand the cardboard thing. There shouldn't be anything like that. Whatever it is it should be removed.
The cardboard is enveloping the sump box around the sides and bottom, and can be seen when I grind out the the filler that was used to fair the only side that is open. There is less than 1/4" space between the sump box and the metal round it which is filled with the cardboard. I agree that the cardboard should be removed but it is impossible. I was hoping to hear from anybody that has seen this before, or some ideas to get rid of moisture in the cardboard before sealing the whole thing again.
I'm trying to get ideas that I will try next haulout. Thanks for everyone's comments.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I am having a difficult time understanding the setup. Is the sump bigger than the opening? It doesn't look that way from the picture. From what you are describing with the cardboard it could be used to wick moisture out of an area intended to be dry. But it will mildew and stink eventually. If it were me I would call Erik Stromberg and find out what is supposed to be going on in there. estromberg@jeanneauamerica.com
JEANNEAU AMERICA, Inc.
105 Eastern Avenue, Suite 202 Annapolis, MD 21403 USA
tel: 1-410-280-9400 fax: 1-410-280-9401

I'm wondering now if the cardboard is just used as filler/insulation between the cutout in the keel and the fiberglass sump.
 
#14 ·
Looks like what is going on with my 22 yr old Arcadia. The yard I am at, says this is "common" if you will. My bolts are encased too.

You may want to go to www.jeanneau-owners.com and post at that forum, and see if others are having the same issue. I did not have this issue 2 yrs ago when I bought the boat. Currently the boat will be put back in tomorrow, after the keel has been cleaned off, new epoxy and sealent ie 5200 along the keel to hull are you have the same issue with. This should be good for some 6-8 yrs. Or at least I have been told.

Marty
 
#16 ·
Gene T said:
I am having a difficult time understanding the setup. Is the sump bigger than the opening? It doesn't look that way from the picture. From what you are describing with the cardboard it could be used to wick moisture out of an area intended to be dry. But it will mildew and stink eventually. If it were me I would call Erik Stromberg and find out what is supposed to be going on in there. estromberg@jeanneauamerica.com
JEANNEAU AMERICA, Inc.
105 Eastern Avenue, Suite 202 Annapolis, MD 21403 USA
tel: 1-410-280-9400 fax: 1-410-280-9401

I'm wondering now if the cardboard is just used as filler/insulation between the cutout in the keel and the fiberglass sump.
Thanks! that's good advice. I just wanted the boat back in the water so I didn't do a lot of research at the time. Now I have a year or two to prepare for the next haulout.
It looked like the cardboard was just like insulation but it is impossible to dry it properly and it will trap moisture that gets sealed in.
 
#17 ·
Sailormann said:
I suspect that the cardboard is meant to be removed, but that someone at the yard missed it when the boat was shipped. It was probably put in there as a makeshift moulding form, with the idea that it would be taken out, and that any vestiges could be easily clead off with water.
Let me clarify. The carboard is trapped between the keel and the bilge box. It is sealed inside and the only reason I found out about it is that I had water leaking in through the hull/keel joint and I had to grind the epoxy out as I followed the moisture. Then I tried to clean up the space around the boxlike sump (bilge) that is encased into the keel cavity. It was impossible to remove the cardboard so I dried it as much as I could by soaking with alcohol and sealed it in again with epoxy.
 
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