And in the end, the Solar Stik is still just an expensive mounting system, though I don't doubt well made, for components that anyone can buy and use. It would appear, that performance claims lie primarily in the components, more than the Stik itself, though it does contribute by beind adjustable.
Is there really anything else to say?
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John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
John, I'm not sure I'd be that hard on it. To a large extent, yes, the performance comes from the components (PWM), but there's also a significant boost from being able to rotate/angle the panels--which it allows very simply and robustly. If someone else designed some kind of "ball mount" to allow solar panels to be stuck on a pulpit and rotated that way...But I don't know that there is anything like that on the market, capable of holding panels up in +20 knots, much less what the SS can hold them in. (I figure, by 20 knots the wx is closing in and I'd want to stow them anyway.)
The numbers indicating the affect of angling the panels, seem to come from "no load" conditions, and that's simply not right. I haven't seen numbers under load yet, I'll try to get some.
Sailingdog-
Jeez, you guys are gonna extort all the dribs and drabs from me before I can get it all finished in one piece. I checked/changed the panel angle before each set of measurements, every 1/2 hour at the outside.
9:15 AM, batteries measured under no load as 12.30 volts and 12.24 volts, the latter being B2 and connected via the A/B switch and the boat's cabling--not directly.
10:15 AM, "bulk" charge indicated, remote showing 13.2V to on the batteries as I started the tests--and it took me a while to figure out the SolarBoost setups after this point. The SBoost was connected directly to B1 only, flowing into B2 via the A/B switch set to "both" during the whole day.
Next note has no time mark, shows 13.10 (my meter) at the batteries with the SBoost showing 13.4 out to them, my meter showing 15.70 V out of the panels. I'm not sure if there's an error in the note regarding the 13.10/vs/13.4 difference here I think I was still fuzzy brained from trying to understand the SBoost programming.
11:00AM, 15.42 in, 13.37 out, measured by my meter on the SBoost terminals. The sun was already full brightness (per the Gossen meter) and the SBoost was still in "bulk" mode using the default wet lead facotry settings.
At that point I checked the SBoost reaedings, 13.3V @4.4 Amps shown, versus my multimeter 13.14V@4.27A shown (using separate shunts, one in the positive lead, one in the negative) so I was indicating 56.1W and it was indicating 58.5W, either a 95% or 104% difference depending on which side you look at. To me that just means either the SBoost display metering was off by 5%, or the effect of PWM on my DC meter was 5%. I don't know.
By 11:15 AM it was showing 13.6 volts @ 4.^, for 62.56W charging.
At 11:20 I measured 15.81V into the SBoost and 13.36V out of it, against 13.5-13.6 showing on it's panel. In theory the SBoost was providing about a 6-7% net gain, putting out 4.7A @ 13.6V instead of the 4.4A at 15.81V that was coming out of the panels. (Check my math, but that's what I wrote at the time.) I went on to about 1AM but didn't see any significant increases in any numbers, which didn't surprise me since 11AM-1PM would all be "peak" output time. I was surprised not to see anything near 100W coming out of the panel array though, it was only around 85F so I can't blame that on heat.
CD-
I don't know, I'm hard put to stick a number on the gain. I mean, which numbers do we go by? The 5% difference in meters, indicating....which one is right? The 10-20% difference in battery gain/performance, that PWM is supposed to add? The 6-7% net gain in charging amperage that I did measure? If the 6-7% is real, and the 5% metering difference is from my DC meter being "low" due to the PWM...that would mean an 11-12% gain from the MPPT controller alone. Plus the real but elusive "gain under load" from the angled panels, which might be that much again or more. And then, there's the battery gain from PWM...where or how do we write that one up?
All that I'm saying, is that to someone who doesn't split up those pieces, the change from flat panels to this system could appear to be a huge difference, I suspect possibly 30-40% overall depending a lot on how their batteries responded to the PWM charging.
Still, if the gain from angling the panels really is (let's say) 10%...and you add the gain from the MPPT as another 10%...
What did Alan Greenspan say? A couple of million here, a couple of million there, sooner or later you're talking real money.
This puts me in mind of some testing that Consumer Reports did on 35mm cameras a million years ago. They surveyed repair shops and asked what models they did the most repairs on, then compared that to sales figures. And they paned Nikon as needing too many repairs. What they forgot to factor in, was at that time essentially all the pros used Nikons--in the rain, on the beach, all day all night everywhere, so the cameras took a lot more abuse than the ones used twice a year at weddings and vacations.
I think I've made a start at turning up some of the real issues, but a lot more needs to be done to get the real answers.
Sailingdog-
Jeez, you guys are gonna extort all the dribs and drabs from me before I can get it all finished in one piece.
HS–
It's just the canine solar torture interrogation technique.
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Sailingdog Telstar 28
New England
You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.
—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)
If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this POST.
Hello Sailor says:
No custom negotiating with tower welders and other techie stuff required, and I can see it fitting in very nicely there.
There was certainly plenty of other custom negotiation for MISTRESS. It was nice when Skip found something available that was strong enough to do what he wanted. Additionally, SS was modified to afford the mount things (sorry about that) to hold the gimbaled GPS mount, Radar, and wind generator. The bowsprit, chain plates, and a bunch of other stuff he made from scratch.
Some day, I will tell you a funny story about the very special drill that gave its life for 14 of the 16 chain plates. This very, pumped up, Taylor style drill polished the unfinished chain plates Skip made to the polished finish they are now. It was, as Skip describes its demise, a worthy, firery, spectacular death.
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No matter who I ask...the best answer I can get about really accurately measuring amps and volts on a PWM-DC system seems to involve fourier transforms and other math that glaze my eyes and hurt my head. I confess, I never took calculus and if anyone has a good PBS-video-set to recommend on it, please do.
PWM .. fourier? xformers,….. calculus …. glazed eyes,…
P. B. S. “no wait, I know that one“.
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What I want to do, is actually deep cycle some battery power in/out with the SolarStik and make the measurements based on the DC from the batteries.
I understand that.
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Thunderstorms and TORNADO WARNINGS - Heard about them from folks across the Sound from you. Somewhere, Over The Rain Bow, hmm hmmm hmmmmmmm.
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I'll tell you, it would be both easier and harder to sit all day in the sun and test that thing, if there was an iced marguerita dispenser built into it!
The new sun covers makes this much easier.
Tonight was also marguerite night. Hot days.
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I hate my computer. Every once in a while I compose a reply, go out to check a web site, come back, and everything is gone because some damned link closed the window where I was posting the reply. sigh.
Open Word while you are on line and then you can copy quotes into Word, get off line, and respond in Word, then copy and paste it on to the web site. Much easier.
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But I don't know that there is anything like that on the market, capable of holding panels up in +20 knots, much less what the SS can hold them in. (I figure, by 20 knots the wx is closing in and I'd want to stow them anyway.)
I don’t know if you are saying 20 knots because that is what SS claims, but I have already experienced above 70 twice in one day. Both my larger panels were in the down position and held completely. They did not move.
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Giulietta says, So, please in one sentence...what does the Lewis Armstrong thing do??
I think I am starting to get your sense of humor. Good one.
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Cruisingdad says,
2) … and a person would expect (with diligent turning of the panels) about a 10-20% increase over flat panels
It’s NOT diligent. I swear.
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Sailingdog says, …and how much adjusting the panels really affects actual output??
It helps to face them towards the sun.
Sailingdog says,
HS–
It's just the canine solar torture interrogation technique.
That’s funny. lol
I feel for HelloSailor. Its one thing to test a product out, it is quite different to put it down on paper and then answer questions about it.
What did he do that was so wrong that you all made him do this?
I suppose we all owe him a margarita.
I think, the main reason this topic has been so exhaustively covered is that in the beginning it was the Stik itself that was suppose to give the seemingly impossible output that was cited. Thanks to hellosailor's efforts, we can now see that while the Stik plays a part, due to it's adjustablity, it is really the components used ON the Stik that are primarily responsible for the performance, rather than simply the Stik.
At this point, it would seem the conversation is really about those components, moreso than about SS.
__________________
John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
If I might toss in some empirical observations from a terrestrial user of similar tech....
My house and cabinet shop run off immense lead acid batteries, eight PV panels, and an 8.2 ft diameter wind turbine. The solar panels are mounted on twin Zomeworks trackers. I'm closer to 41 degrees North and have employed both a Trace C60 non-MMPT charge controller and an Outback MX60 MPPT controller. There's also a nifty little logging monitor by Trimetric, which allows me to follow solar and wind inputs over time.
First thing I'd point out is that amps are pulled, not pushed. As the batteries approach their rated voltage, their charging rate drops substantially -- they start to push back. Also, they become hot and that increases internal resistance.
The proper way to test what is known as 'flash' wattage is with a carbon pile or similar load; you'll find reputable manufacturers of PV panels are actually a bit conservative on their ratings, listing panels about 7% below real-world performance and vastly understating the panels' open and closed circuit voltages. To wit, my 24 volt (130 watt) Siemens/Shell monocrystallines pump out 35 volts and 142 watts each on a cool, sunny day.
As others have said, MPPT simply compares the momentary voltage of the panels vs. batteries and adjust the former to a minimal gradient (~1 volt) above the latter; the excess it converts to amps. Easy peasy. Testing is not so easy, tho: a smart charge controller (like the BlueSky or Outback) also tapers charge inputs according to its perception of battery needs; the same panels in the same sun will read different wattages in bulk, absorb, float, and equalize modes.
Nice thing about the Outback is its display: you can watch panel volts and amps side-by-side with battery volts and amps, in real time. This I check against the Trimetric meter for actual amp-hour-in/out readings daily and monthly.
I can attest to a substantial amp-hour increase using MPPT over non-MPPT charge controllers: 40% in bulk mode on a cold day with thirsty batteries; 15% when it's hot (supresses PV volts) or the batts are nearly full.
Tracking PV mounts provide major gains when & where the sun follows a long arc. They are little help here when days are short. But in the summer they yield about two or three hours more prime charging than I'd get with fixed mounts; figure twenty to thirty percent gains in summer, maybe half that in winter.
Not sure any of this helps with the Solar Stick. Sailboats are tough environments for PV, given their shading, minimal unused deck space, and tendency to roll about and turn every few minutes. Wait five more years until the amorphous film production ramps up and laminate your panels over the entire hull, that's my best advice. Now wind turbines -- they are a natural fit with sailboats! Ask me about those some time....
Kathleen-
"I don’t know if you are saying 20 knots because that is what SS claims," No, I just picked 20 knots because at that point, at least around here, it usually is time to start securing things you plan on keeping on the boat. Or at least, making sure you know if that's going to be climbing or lessening.
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the Lewis Armstrong thing
I can only think of blowing a horn?
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CD, if you figure the sun moves 15 degrees per hour, moving the panels once per hour would still be "prime" alignment. Moving them every 90 minutes or so...well...if you're on deck, aren't you trimming the sails and all more often than that anyway?
I'm hoping to do some tilt measurements under load later today, sneaking them in this afternoon to see how much tilt really matters--under load.
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"What did he do that was so wrong that you all made him do this? "
You know, I was asking myself a very similar question. But asking it with words that would make some folks understand what "crusing like a sailor" meant. And, shouldn't that be "cursing AS a sailor" ? Don't want the GrammarPatrol to come after me now.
"I suppose we all owe him a margarita."
The heck with webcams, the next killer app will send mixed drinks over the internet.
Lots of good consulting work done here. What's your consultants rate?
As for going back & forth to different web pages...in the newest internet explorer, they have a TABS feature. You open a new tab and can toggle between web pages, it's like having 2 internet explorers open on your desktop. I've sued it to cut & paste and it works great.
I had a light bulb moment this morning. We all know I have a Skip, souped up version of SS and for that reason I no longer speak to the issue of numbers because I have the two 85 watt panels and therefore my numbers will not be the same as the two 50 watt panels that come with SS. I have continued to speak of the ease of use of a SS and that it takes little effort to capture the sun, and this is where my light bulb moment comes in. Sorry for the delay. I have two SS, we know that, however because of that each morning I take one panel and face it east and turn the second panel, on the second Stik, and face it aft with a tilt to the east. SS cannot have the panels at ninety degree to each other. You can turn it so both panels face east in the morning and then I am not sure how much manipulation it would take to reap the best benefit. My mind will not see this for me, but I have a sneaky suspicion my Skip custom version may give me an advantage.
If a real SS was to be rotated so that both panels were facing east in the morning, I suppose it would only require tilts during the day to accomplish what I get in the way of ease of use, but again, I really cannot see this with my brain. I believe this makes me no more than a curious bystander in this forum, and therefore, cannot offer anything concrete. It looks like it’s up to HelloSailor and Practical Sailor now.
When I mentioned this to Skip this morning he was half paying attention to me and filling the dingy with gas at the same time, however he said, he can still recognize a good product when he sees it and maintains SS is a good product.
Kathleen
Aboard
Schooner MISTRESS
PS Schooner MISTRESS sends a tall cool Margarita to HelloSailor. Click on link here. www.margarita.com
