I've been Solar Struck by the SolarStik

[sailingdog]

The Outback is an MPPT charge controller IIRC.

Originally Posted by Freesail99

So I would need a MPPT AND a Outback MX60 charge controller ? Or one or the other ?

[Freesail99]

Thanks SD I was confused.

[camaraderie]

AMY...The real issue we have been discussing is how much wattage the stik can put out under IDEAL circumstances...not whether it is better than fixed panels. If it cannot put out what Brian claims at PEAK hours...then it cannot put that out when the sun is lower on the horizon either.
We ALL agree that the ability to position the stik in the tail hours of the day is a significant plus over fixed systems.
Note that what you "seem" to be averaging on a good clear day...would "seem" to be rather overstated since you are relying on the MPPT readouts rather than actual test equipment. You would need 10 hours of input at slightly more than the peak wattage HS measured to hit 70AH's.

EDIT...HS did do some early measurements with the panels pointed at the sun BUT the REAL output was quite low. To understand...look at the footcandles of light hitting a properly positioned panel he recorded:
The light level readings I got, measuring incident light (i.e. that falling on the panels) was:
5:30AM, 12 foot candles
6:00 AM, 32 foot candles
6:30AM, 65 foot candles
7:15AM, 130 foot candles
8:10AM, 260 foot candles

This contrasts with about 32000 footcandles at PEAK where he measured about 43 watts. So there is input to the panels at low angles to the sun...but even it was 500 percent more...it doesn't amount to much compared to the 6 hours or so of peak output in your neck of the woods.

[hellosailor]

ebs-
Not just the controller. Bear in mind that if you don't have the SolarStik...well, what option do you have to mount solar panels that will allow them to be tilted AND rotated, so they can be pointed right at the sun all day? Keep them flat, and outside of the two noon hours they are going to lose 10% of their output immediately, from being misaligned. An hour further in each direction, and you'll lose more, maybe 25% of the power in each hour. An hour later, when the sun is now at 45 degrees to the panels...You'd have to check the graphs on the web links, but with the panels simply mounted flat, we're really crippling the panels. And it is not just tilt, but rotation that has to be adjusted as well.
Flat panels are a great simple way to do "some maintenance charging" on a moored boat...but not a great way to collect solar panel. The gain from moving the panels around seems to meet/exceed the gain from the MPPT's extra efficiency, and even considering the effect of PWM on the batteries, moving the panels around would still seem to be as important as the MPPT alone. (Saying this based on the rough numbers and rough math I've done, and leaving it for someone else to really look into it with more precision if they want to.)

Freesail-
"So I would need a MPPT AND a Outback MX60 charge controller ? " Nope. The Outback is an MPPT controller. I'm sure Outback and Blue Skies could argue about why who makes the better piece of equipment or what options suit each user more. There are some unexpected options in the SolarBoost that I looked at, like using the solar output to determine "night" and then switch on a circuit based on that, which could automatically run anchor lights, etc. And an auxiliary output with various options. I made no attempt to compare the various MPPT controllers, but AFAIK they are all using PWM-DC so any one of them would provide those gains.

Amy-
"Hellosailor, after having read the numbers just posted, they don't give any early morning or late evening output, so could that be where the real difference is?" Easily. I couldn't get the right positions and wx to get clear low-angle testing, and frankly I can't understand how you can get 5A at any useful voltage from the panels that early in the day. The only testing I could do was with a light meter, which told me there just wasn't that much power (light) to be found at that hour. Maybe you have a better direct sun view, reflection form the open water, the different latitude...All I could find was that the panels DO produce voltage in low light--but not under load. No power under load in low light, either. So the answer must be that your panels in your situation are somehow getting more light. Angling--as from my raw numbers--really would be critical at that hour.

Cam-
You hit the nail on the head. I'm convinced part of this is a matter of location and ideal wx, and the rest probably is the result of confusion, not any intentional misrepresentation.

Maybe...Amy, there's a charge total setting in your BS2000e controller, isn't there? Could you set it for "zero", and then read out how many TOTAL amp-hours it has supplied to your batteries after one or two complete days, just to give us a "day" check on this? Preferably a day when you are starting with better than 50% charged batteries, so we can make sure this isn't also just a phenomenom about battery charge state? You are running 2x50W standard BP panels in there, right? Not docked next to any really shiny glass walled buildings?< G >

[camaraderie]

The only other thing I would reiterate since we keep talking about the horizontal and vertical alignment of the panels is that this testing is on land where you can set and forget for an hour or two. You've already measured what small changes in alignment do to degrade output. On a boat out cruising there is wind and current and tide to deal with as well as wakes and these will ALL degrade the performance of the stik from what you measure on land given the same number of adjustments.

HS... I want to play around with some of your numbers some more but have guests and not enough time right now. Will catch up later! Thanks for all the detail & hope you can get a clear day for a final go before you need to return them.

[AmyJohnson]

Cam,
I see what you are saying, but i also think that is an unfair comparison. if a boat is swinging around, (when we are at anchor we only seem to swing when the tide changes every 6 hours or so) won't it affect the flat panels just as much, if not more? At least we can correct for the problem with the stick. And we regularly see that 5 amperage early in the morning, and the stick is usually at full throttle by 9. We've even seen better than 8 amps on the readout occasionally, but not for very long and usually when the batteries are pretty low from a day or two of bad weather.

Hello S,
Yes we are in Florida, and on the water, and have a clear view of the sunrise. I don't remember reading in the manual that it will tally the amp hours, but I'll recheck it and see what it says. we have not played with the voltage output setting on the 2000E and aoording to the manual it is factory set for 13.8 volts. I'll check it when I get back t the boat later today and let you know. By the way, thank you for the bumper info. I'll be removng them later today.

[camaraderie]

Amy...swinging at anchor will affect flat panels less since the sun remains at the same angle to them. Lets say the sun is 45 degrees above the horizon. No matter which way the boat turns, the sun hits those panels at the same angle.
If on the other hand you adjust your panels to 45 degrees to point directly at the sun then it gets virtually no direct light if the boat swings 180 degrees.
As you point out...if you are in an anchorage with no wind, no current, no wakes...and are on board every 6 hours when the tide changes, you can maximize the output from your panels and way out do a flat panel. But as HS has found, when small angle differences from the original setting are present, wattage drops a bit and FULL output is not attained. Watch the boats in a typical anchorage on a typical day and you will find them swinginng across an arc as the wind and tide and other factors play with them. My point is NOT that the stik is inneffective. My point is that results on the water MUST be lower than on the land. With positioning 3-4 times a day I DO expect that they will outperform a flat panel.
Also...in true cruising mode, most cruisers are OFF their boats for significant parts of the day so that further degrades the differential potential between flat and adjustable. On the other hand, many flat panel installations are shaded by the boom etc. so THAT degrades their performance. So each person has to look at their boat and their anchoring venues and cruising style and budget and make a decision that makes sense for themselves.

HS's research is finally bringing some reality to the actual function and potential of the stik system. The product works and significant gains over flat panels and NON-MPPT controllers may be expected. The gains are substantially less when compared to flat panels that DO have an MPPT controller. My own view is that a couple of fixed panels with an MPPT controller and a wind generator is a better use of my cruising bucks and will deliver more amp hours but that is MY opinion and others may come to different conclusions based on their own needs.

[SchoonerMISTRESS]

Advantages as I see them, as least for me.

I think I do better on the water than in the land test with reference to positioning, because I draw 6 & 1/2 feet with a heavy keel and therefore, I mostly ride to the current here unless the wind is really kicking up. Many of the smaller sailboats in the anchorage will sail about on their anchors much more than MISTRESS does until the tide is running fast.

Additionally, my panels are not on the house or deck and therefore that leaves me more room for life raft, dingy, water tanks, and all that other equipment we cruisers have.

The last thing I like about the idea of SS is the ability to add to it with the additional brackets you can buy and Skip also designed a gimbaled GPS mount which he had welded on to the SS. When we purchased our wind generator we included the mounting system for it. Once in hand, Skip found he did not need the mounting system and our wind generator sits atop one of our SS, again leaving more room on deck for,.... I don't know, my feet.

This is obviously a personal choice and one each of us needs to make based on your boat, where you are, how often you use your boat, and what kind of power consumption you are dealing with. I am very happy Skip was able to find this and did not have to pay to have it build and I rather like not having the panels on deck.
Kathleen
aboard
Schooner MISTRESS

[bobmcgov]

Cam: that's been my experience. My trackers help, but the real gains come from my new, smarter MPPT controller. At $800 each for the trackers, I might have been better served using fixed mounts & adding two more big PV panels. I admit the trackers are cool to watch, tho -- like big sunflowers.

[hellosailor]

Amy-
On one panel, both bumpers were on cells. On the panel I wasn't looking at, two of the three bumpers were in the clear area above the cells.
I think a bead of silicon seal (allowed to dry up into a strip of rubber) on the aluminum, or something similar, would do the same job while staying clear of the cells. Should be a simple "field fix" to do, so you can still stow the panels without banging the glass up.
The one I'm working with has the 2000i (?) with the separate control/display head. LOTS of programming options to read and check, but even without the remote I made sure to check the voltage settings in the main box. I would assume that if you select lower voltage for the bulk/acceptance charge, it should be able to put out higher amperage instead.
Maybe you're using a larger thirstier battery bank, so the controller is trying to feed it with more amps at less voltage during the charge? (I have no idea what the program tries to do that way, I've only noticed that this one seems to "lead" the battery voltage but not simply feed it the max that it was set for, at least not in bulk phase, which is all I was reading from. Never got enough watts to get past that.)
A good point, that with a wind gen on top of the SolarStik (one reason they included a standard "pipe" up top) it conserves even more resources and allows that AND the panels to "get off the boat".
Does your wind output integrate into the same controller?

Cam-
Interesting observations on boat motions /vs/ flat panels. What is it that the sharks say? "Reality bites!" I guess this is one of those little problems where the real world gets in the way.< G >
I for one am glad to wait until you get a chance to look over the numbers and think about what else is going on.