Here goes... the summary to the saga... I hope I have been completely accurate here...
THe questions regarding the SS, for those that do not want to read 44000 pages of good info, bad info, name calling, etc... is:
1) WHAT IS REAL WORLD OUTPUT FOR A CRUISER?
2) DOES IT JUSTIFY THE PRICE?
Am I wrong here?? THat is the basis for this conversation.
Answers:
1)
The real world output for the SS, assuming a diligent turning, is in the 60's-70 ah/day (70's being wayyyy on the outside, perfect day range). Is that correct, or have I missread? So, unless you are living very frugally, 60-70 will not touch your outgo. You will have to find another means of charging, buy another solar stick(s), or both. Cruisers often ask us what our real outgo was. For us, without a watermaker, 150-180 was our number, IIRC. Cam, Soul Searcher, Btrayfors, Tartan34c, PBeezer, Faster... is that what you have seen??
I honestly do not undersatnd how people come in less than that. Maybe their kids turn off the lights?? I do not know.
2
Here is what I have. It cost me, start to finish, about $7,500 or so. That is a lot more than the SS... but my daily average output is about 176 ah/day. That just about puts me off the grid (or totally off the grid if the kids turn off the lights).
The pic above is a frontal shot.
THis pic show the side view of the solar arch.
This pic shows a long-view of the panels across the top.
This setup consists of 4-KC 130 panels wired in series to a Outback MX-60 MPPT controller. THe cost of these was about $600/panel plus 500ish for the controller, and 400ish for the wire and lugs. THe rest is the arch, which doubles as a line holder, extra equipment holder (like dive tanks soon), and a place I can hang my dirty underwear to let them dry out (to scare away the pesky Sea Rays).
So, where is the money better spent?? These are real world numbers. Also, with a setup like mine, you can easily add a wind (which I do not think you should) or even more panels with minimal expense. A negative of mine is that you will have to find a machine/fab shop to buid the arch. The typical (if any) bimini will NOT hold that kind of weight. Thus, you have more frustration and time involoved in designing the system.
I am not against the SS. I have said that a million times I think. It seems that it is a good product with a very neat mounting system for the "right" boat wth "Realistic" views on what it will put out. However, it is simply a mounting system and if your aspirations are to be close to off the grid, you better buy a bunch of them.
Any differing opinions?
- CD
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CD, is that a solar panel aray or the Disco Dancing Deck of your ship? < g >
Do you get any problems from seagulls and the like partying up there and leaving little deposits that shade the cells?
More important, you've got 520 Watts of panels up there, versus 100 Watts for one SolarStik, or 200 Watts for a pair of them. If we pulled a random number out the air and said a SS could provide 60-70AH in a day from the 100W panel set...You are getting 176AH out of a 520 W array.
Hmmm...they're going some 65% efficiency (comparing AH to W, crudely and incorrectly but still meaningful for the comparison) while you're getting about 30% efficiency from the huge flat panels. You've spent less, and you're getting enough power, but you're still using twice as much panel (and real estate) to get the same wattage out of them.
Of course you don't have to fuss with the flat panels, just hose 'em down once in a while, that's worth something too.
CD, is that a solar panel aray or the Disco Dancing Deck of your ship? < g >
Do you get any problems from seagulls and the like partying up there and leaving little deposits that shade the cells?
More important, you've got 520 Watts of panels up there, versus 100 Watts for one SolarStik, or 200 Watts for a pair of them. If we pulled a random number out the air and said a SS could provide 60-70AH in a day from the 100W panel set...You are getting 176AH out of a 520 W array.
Hmmm...they're going some 65% efficiency (comparing AH to W, crudely and incorrectly but still meaningful for the comparison) while you're getting about 30% efficiency from the huge flat panels. You've spent less, and you're getting enough power, but you're still using twice as much panel (and real estate) to get the same wattage out of them.
Of course you don't have to fuss with the flat panels, just hose 'em down once in a while, that's worth something too.
(That's a BIG BOAT you've got there!)
First of all, that is NOT a disco dancing deck. Come on, you are losing credibility here. That IS a very high-tech sun-tan bed. Don't believe??? Come lay out on it and see what happens (smile).
Ok,
THere is NO way that those panels sitting flat on that oversized roll-bar are going to compete with the constant rotation and adjustment of adjustable panels. Anyone that thinks so is crazy (smile). However, I do not know what the max I can get out of my panels is. I have not depleted the batts enough to know yet. I am topped off by the time the day is over. Did that make sense?? But I can tell you that 60-70 ain't gonna cut it with my kids!! Still, I doubt they will get a whole lot more than the max I have seen (176).
Also, I am not picking sides in anything here, but I will say that in my experience, we are off of our boat a good percentage of the time when anchored. THere is no one on board to move the panels. THis mimicks what Cam said. As I have said in many threads before, we are out messing around in the dink, walking the shore, snorkeling, have a hook in the water (I hate to call what I do fishing), etc. The exception is rainy days, which is another story.
THus, some of the practicalities of rotating the panels I find unrealistic in how WE cruise. Others without kids may be different (lucky dogs). I honestly will not speak for them. But I will say our experiences mimick Cams.
On another note... as I have two worthless mutts on board, we never have had much of an issue with birds, in general. It is not that my dogs could in their dreams catch one, but I think they bark enough to make even an irritating bird want to switch islands!!
BTW, I will say again Hello, thanks for taking the time to do that. I know you did it for your own curiosity too, but your time has helped a lot of people out there make good, informed decisions... and those are the only decision worth making.
- CD
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Also, with a setup like mine, you can easily add a wind (which I do not think you should) or even more panels with minimal expense. A negative of mine is that you will have to find a machine/fab shop to buid the arch. The typical (if any) bimini will NOT hold that kind of weight. Thus, you have more frustration and time involoved in designing the system.
Why would you not have a wind gen? To my mind, cloudy days and dark nights are at least 55-60% of the time, even in the tropics, but you can get decent wind most of the time.
To answer CD's question...our amp hour usage per day was in the 150 range...but about 80-100 of this was due to the fridge which is a big two bay affair with dual cold plates and we were in VERY warm water with a dark hull. So...I can see smaller bat with limited refrigeration coming in around 100 amp hours a day if they are frugal. We also knew smaller boats that came in above us in daily use...usually through heavy HAM/ SSB use or lots of PC & DVD watching time.
That's why I think it is good for people to have a realistic idea of their at anchor A/H useage before making investments in battery banks, alternators, solar stiks etc.
Why would you not have a wind gen? To my mind, cloudy days and dark nights are at least 55-60% of the time, even in the tropics, but you can get decent wind most of the time.
Val,
I had a Air-X on my setup. I bought all the crap to set it up. THen when I went to put it up... I realized it was going to shade the panels. At some point it was going to shade, no matter what.
I can produce enough to stay off the grid. Why add a wind?? In the lower latts, you will have some cloudy days, but in general it is bright and sunny. You WILL have the 2-4 storm in the summer, but the winter is typically quite nice and bright and the summer keeps the sun out for a long time and generally bright most of the day.
Besides, we always like to snuggle up in anchorage as close to land as we can to avoid the wind. THat makes a wind useless, considering you probably are not getting anything out of it until 12mph, IIRC. Cam has the chart for that.
Now, if you were only going to go with one thing and wanted to keep costs low, wind would make more sense. But I have 840-880 ah on my house bank, plus seperate starter bank, so I can weather the occasional fronts and cloudy days. And if it is still cloudy days later, I have a diesel generator.
But again, when you go to plan out your array and wind, look at where you will put the wind. If it shades those panels much at all, their power output drop exponentially.
Those are just my feelings. Other dissargree.
What do you think Cam?
- CD
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What is it about the Solar Stik that makes you want to get one just to smash somebody's car up with it. I would really like one to swing around at people and toss off of a bridge just to see what would happen to it. And I'm very non-violent. Something about the Solar Stik brings this out, the Solar Stik is punk rock.
Last edited by wind_magic : 07-23-2007 at 07:08 PM.
To this point, my alternate energy source (wind) merely slows down the rate of discharge. Better insulation on the fridge will help, but still, if the reefer is running, along with the A/P and computer, I'm pulling 12 amps when I check the meter. I thought about adding solar, but decided a small Honda generator was the better value (for me). Aside from the fact I don't really have the space to add enough panels, unless I make the boat look like the designated wreck in a Star Wars movie.
As an aside, you're all wrong about CD's panels. What they really are is his heliport.
On the hard at Deaton's Yacht Service, Oriental, NC
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John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
WindMagic-
It IS awfully similar to the old NikeZeus defense missiles. Tempting to add a rocket engine and a couple of fins and see if anyone gets upset by one.
John-
As long as you're in range of fuel stations, I've got to agree that a small genset makes an awful lot of sense for a lot of users. Cheaper than the solar panels and electronics alone, higher output, smaller. If you don't need to burn an awful lot of gasoline to meet your needs....could be simply way cheaper and simpler overall, for many.
Where has all the invective gone?? geesh, you are all being so nice all of a sudden.
anyway, Hellosailor... the blue sky control that came with our solar stik doesn't have a feature that totals the amp-hours of the day. I take it that yours does? Did we get the right one, or did you get the right one?
It appears that ours shows three numerical values:
battery voltage
solar panel current (at solar panel voltage)
actual charge current (after the 2000E does it's thing with mppt)
Our lunchtime (about an hour straight) observation today is as follows:
outside conditions: clear, 90 degrees
batt voltage: 12.2 to 12.3
solar panel current: 6.1
output charge current: 7.8
this is all data directly from the 2000E display. We had alot of running around to do today, so all we can gve you is a brief report.
I would really like one to swing around at people and toss off of a bridge just to see what would happen to it. And I'm very non-violent. 
