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  #21  
Old 09-13-2007
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I have no connection with this company but they rate all types of rigging.
Rigging Service

It is a bit of an eye opener when some people are talking about riggs 20+ years old. What will the insurance company use when it comes to a claim.
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Last edited by SimonV; 09-13-2007 at 11:15 AM.
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  #22  
Old 09-13-2007
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rod rigging

My 70's Heritage One Ton had rod rigging. It had been replaced in the mid 80's, so it was about 20 years old. The P.O. caught a gust from starboard, heard a gunshot, and the whole rig came down in a spectacular crash with the mast breaking off at the gooseneck and falling over to port. Fortunately, no one was hurt. Basically, the P.O.'s wife told him he was all done, and I ended up with the boat.

Turned out that the headed end on a D1 had parted and a turnbuckle had parted - both to windward when the event happened. There's no way to really determine which failed first. We were able to salvage the mast and boom. The furler, hydraulic vang, hydraulic backstay adjuster, jib, main, port lifeline stantions, and most of the running rigging were history.

With some input from Charley Morgan (who built the boat), we were able to splice the mast and get her re-rigged. Getting the rig back up (sans sails, etc) using wire cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $16K. The estimate to re-rig with Navtec rod was about $25K. We went with wire due to cost, servicability, and "piece of mind factor".
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  #23  
Old 09-13-2007
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Pamlico-

Catastrophic failure of rod rigging is well documented. I know of at least three boats that have had it fail with no warning. Also, when you're out cruising, it is important to have rigging that is easy to repair, as in many areas, rod rigging and the tools needed to make it are not available. Rod rigging can also be damaged more easily, by impact to the rigging than wire rigging, which is more flexible.

The real weak point of rod rigging is the terminal ends... but that is also the case on wire rigging. Wire rigging rarely fails in the middle of a cable... it usually fails at a terminal fitting. However, wire rigging usually gives fairly clear warning prior to failing—meathooks, rusting, etc—rod rigging has no such warning signs.

Fiber rigging, like Spectra, Carbon Fiber and PBO is interesting, but not really ready for prime-time usage yet. It is very expensive and relatively short-lived and much more fragile in many ways. It is used on racing boats, but these are boats that are inspected very regularly and have budgeted a fair amount for replacing the standing rigging on a regular basis—which is generally not the case with a cruising boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pamlicotraveler View Post
Does anyone know of an actual example of a catastrophic Rod Rigging failure? If there is it is probably the connectors because for rod rigging they used use ball fittings on the upper ends of the rods and I am sure those could fail.

I believe rod rigging to be better based on the fact that I am not aware of any failures. Since most boats have wire rigging a vote is likely to be biased towards wire rigging because we all tend to prefer what we have. I am not a metallurgist, although I do play one on the internet, but I would be interested in hearing from one.

The future might be in fiber rigging...and kevlar etc. and I am interested in learning more about that.
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  #24  
Old 09-13-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pamlicotraveler View Post
Does anyone know of an actual example of a catastrophic Rod Rigging failure? If there is it is probably the connectors because for rod rigging they used use ball fittings on the upper ends of the rods and I am sure those could fail.

I believe rod rigging to be better based on the fact that I am not aware of any failures. Since most boats have wire rigging a vote is likely to be biased towards wire rigging because we all tend to prefer what we have. I am not a metallurgist, although I do play one on the internet, but I would be interested in hearing from one.

The future might be in fiber rigging...and kevlar etc. and I am interested in learning more about that.
A recent Practical Sailor article answered that while fiber rigging was great, the savings in weight versus the price didn't make sense for cruisers.

As for failures, I can recall two of the bigger C&C racers in the local Toronto area that have had failures in the last eight or so years. I know cruisers who've retired otherwise sound rod rigging for wire just because it's much easier for the voyager to maintain or replace themselves. That's not so much a knock against rod rigging as it is a comment on the "self-service" systems (Hi-Mod, Sta-Lok) available for wire, that readily available, easily stowed and handled "form factor".

Of course, I suppose the absolute winning way to go would be to carry a few pre-cut fibre stays if a rod fails, but what if it fails during a bad blow?
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Old 09-13-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Pamlico-Catastrophic failure of rod rigging is well documented. I know of at least three boats that have had it fail with no warning. Also, when you're out cruising, it is important to have rigging that is easy to repair, as in many areas, rod rigging and the tools needed to make it are not available. Rod rigging can also be damaged more easily, by impact to the rigging than wire rigging, which is more flexible. .
Failures at the fittings have obviously occured but I have never heard of a failure in the body of the rod itself. I am sure if you went under a drawbridge that wasn't open for traffic something would have to give way, but my guess is that with rod rigging, if it was sized correctly, it would be at the fittings because if rod and wire are of equal size the rod is stronger.

Hopefully rod rigging on boats is of high quality stainless and nothing less - I suppose we should beware of rod made in China -
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Old 09-13-2007
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I had a 77 Heritage West Indies with rod rigging. I had mine rebuilt by a rigger that cut the ends off and reformed them. This is what Navtec recommended and it cost me about 2k. The rigger said it was good for another 20 years. Call Kevin at stixnrign in Kemah Texas.
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  #27  
Old 09-14-2007
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Fiber rigging, like Spectra, Carbon Fiber and PBO is interesting, but not really ready for prime-time usage yet.
I also think it's a bit early for regular sailor-folk to be adopting this stuff. It's ideal for deep-pocket racers who can afford to replace it at the first sign of trouble, and who are constantly inspecting their rigs to identify trouble before it starts.

I am thinking that there may be some issues with UV degradation over the long term. Although I am under the impression that there is a shielding layer on it, chafe and wear could possibly erode the shielding, leaving the cable exposed to sunlight, in places that were not noticeable from the deck...

I'm going to wait for a few more years to see how it wears...
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Old 09-18-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painters
Would you take your C&C 34 across the Atlantic?
I wouldn't but not because of the boat but because of my lack of experience. I have no doubt though that it could handle it.

This season I put new Doyle sails on the boat and was delayed because my sailmaker was doing the Burmuda one-two race on a C&C 35. This year's Class 3 had four older C&C's racing.

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Old 02-01-2009
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i think rod is a matter of trust. almost all rod is discontinuous. this makes it interdependant on itself. mast column failures are the result of failure of any one part. continuous rod would be safer imho, for cruising. however, i rather view it like crossing an avalache prone slope in the mountains, a less than one percent chance starts to be pretty uncomfortable after many exposures.

for rerigging rod to wire, this is essentially a re-engineering project and well as the rigging work. there are some good books on this, i would start with the rigger's apprentice as being the most accessable.

tom
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Old 02-01-2009
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Whether it fails at the terminal or the rod itself is immaterial. A failure is a failure. Dye testing will not show all the flaws and even an experienced rigger more often than not cannot tell when a failure is likely. If a boat has been stored with the mast up here in the Toronto area and raced every Wednesday night for the last 25yrs. I sure wouln't take it offshore and salt water just increases the risk. While it is immensely strong it gives almost no pre-indication of spectacular failure. Common sense will tell you that nothing lasts for ever and several million cyclic loads cannot help but hasten the end of rod rigging.
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