Unmanageable Mainsheet - Page 7 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 
  #61  
Old 09-25-2007
Here .. Pull this
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,031
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Sailormann will become famous soon enough
I'll make it easy for you Jim. Take a walk around the club/marina and look at the sheeting systems on other boats around the same size as yours. Then go the boat store and buy what they have.

Don't try to save money by buying something more economical or slightly smaller or not quite as well made. This is a piece of gear that you buy once every fifteen or twenty years. Get a good one. Get a big one.

If you can only afford to buy the top half then buy that now and wait until spring to get the other part.

Use 1/2 inch line.

Don't assume that you are going to be able to avoid 30 or 35 knot gusts, because they come up fast and are gone before you can get anywhere near the reefing lines.

After you've sailed the boat reefed a couple of times, you're not going to want to do it unless it's absolutely necessary, because the sail shape is bad, and it flaps and makes noise and is just butt ugly to look at. So you're going to do what most of us do and get out there, get hit by a couple of gusts and then MAYBE reef, or else just let the sheet fly for a few seconds until it blows through.

Most of the time, you reef because you are out there in the middle of something that's uncomfortable or dangerous and you have to keep going forward, but it is rare to see anyone leaving the slip with their sails in bondage... (the wife maybe, but not the sails )
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #62  
Old 09-25-2007
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,728
Thanks: 0
Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
I just put the harken upwind track/traveler on my 30' Jeanneau ith 160# of main, which will be 190 with a full roach. I currently have the original 4-1 also. may go to a 6-1 or even the 4-1 with smaller 4-1 built in for a 16-1. if only to make it easier for spouse to pull in and use.

I rerigged my boom vang the other day too, went from a 4-1 to a 6-1, boy is that nice when the wind picks up, along with bringing it back to the top cabin with a winch availible too! Hopefully I will not need that.

In the end tho, go bigger, not smaller!

marty
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #63  
Old 09-25-2007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,710
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
SEMIJim will become famous soon enough SEMIJim will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
Jim-

I understand the position you are in. There are plenty of people walking the docks that can give advice; but the bottom line is you need to base your decisions on what you KNOW to be correct.
I haven't been asking "just anybody." The three local people, four, incl. the PO, are all sailors with extensive sailing experience on multiple boats. Three of them, at least, have extensive racing experience. (Not just club racing, either.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
Most people that own a boat; specifically a sailboat are aware that the safety of the crew and guests are ultimately the responsibility of the skipper;...
I'm well-aware of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
It is a small expense relative to the purchase and long-term mainenance and berthing costs; so it should be a no-brainer (IMHO).
All these "small expenses" are adding up to be one rather large expense. We're being nickel-and-dime'd to death. We started out with a $13k boat. By the time taxes, club/slip/storage fees, new/additional equipment (good GPS, etc.) and needed upgrades/repairs (head rebuild, oil-changing system for the A4, etc.) get done with us, we'll be up to somewhere in the vicinity of $20k. The Admiral is getting twitchy. I don't blame her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I don't know what the load capacity of your old controls are; if you replace them with 4:1 and low load blocks it seems to me like it would be trading one bad apple for another. If those Schaefer blocks happen to be high load carrying you could be making matters worse.
I don't know, either. I don't know as it's possible to find out. They're original equipment, which means they were put on the boat 31 years ago. I'm not sure it really matters. They were put in in an end-boom sheeting configuration, and we're at 2/3 to 3/4 boom now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
My opinion is based on what the Harken calculator says for 35-45kts. My description of SWL vs. Breaking Load and what it should mean to you ...
35-40 kts! Holy mackerel! If I'm out in 35-40 kts, even if they're just puffs, and I don't have two reefs in, I don't belong in that boat on the water.

The blocks I have on order are good to 19 kts (SWL) and 27 kts (breaking load), with a full main. Now that might be pushing the envelope, assuming we're still running un-reefed in 19 kt winds and we're getting 27 kt gusts. Personally, I rather doubt I'll be sailing in that weatherw/o at least one reef in. (The PO, a very experienced sailor and racer, used to put the 1st reef in at around 20 kts, dropped from the #1 to the #3 at 25 kts, put the 2nd reef in approaching 30 kts, and dropped the #3 at above that, IIRC.)

I appreciate your points, KeelHaulin, really I do. I like to over-design/over-specify, myself. But The Admiral ain't goin' for it this time and believe the Lewmar blocks we have on order will be up to the task.

Jim
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #64  
Old 09-25-2007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,710
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
SEMIJim will become famous soon enough SEMIJim will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormann View Post
I'll make it easy for you Jim. Take a walk around the club/marina and look at the sheeting systems on other boats around the same size as yours. Then go the boat store and buy what they have.
You know, that's such a simple idea I completely missed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormann View Post
Don't try to save money by buying something more economical or slightly smaller or not quite as well made.
It's not so much a question of "saving money," as not spending any more than necessary. And the Lewmar racing blocks we have on order are well-made, trust me .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormann View Post
After you've sailed the boat reefed a couple of times, you're not going to want to do it unless it's absolutely necessary, ...
See my last reply to KeelHaulin regarding how the PO used to operate the boat.

We did sail her once, already, with a reef in. A reef in and no headsail. Did 7.5 kts in about 15 kts true (according to SailFlow, later on) on a beam reach, at one point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormann View Post
... it is rare to see anyone leaving the slip with their sails in bondage... (the wife maybe, but not the sails )
That time I mentioned above, we left the slip with a reef in.

Reefing's a performance issue, too, as I'm sure you well know. As per the common wisdom: I'd rather shake out a reef I didn't need than have to put one in when I'm finally left with no choice.

Jim
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #65  
Old 09-25-2007
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Double Post...

Last edited by KeelHaulin; 09-25-2007 at 07:42 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #66  
Old 09-25-2007
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEMIJim View Post
I haven't been asking "just anybody." The three local people, four, incl. the PO, are all sailors with extensive sailing experience on multiple boats. Three of them, at least, have extensive racing experience. (Not just club racing, either.)
Well; let's just say that people who have not "crunched the numbers" are not well enough informed to give you the advice you are looking for. I guess that I have a different perspective than your local sailors because heavy wind is the norm on SF Bay and it's not uncommon to see the racing sailboats heeled to 60 deg, dismastings, catamarans getting flipped, boats in distress, etc. Every weekend in the summer there is some sort of Pan Pan call for a boat that is sinking or a person that has gone overboard it seems. Lots of people are out sailing in boats that are under-equipped or people that are just too confident in their skills. That's why I suggest over-building the running rigging; at least it would minimize that potential for failure/injury.


Quote:
All these "small expenses" are adding up to be one rather large expense. We're being nickel-and-dime'd to death. We started out with a $13k boat. By the time taxes, club/slip/storage fees, new/additional equipment (good GPS, etc.) and needed upgrades/repairs (head rebuild, oil-changing system for the A4, etc.) get done with us, we'll be up to somewhere in the vicinity of $20k. The Admiral is getting twitchy. I don't blame her.
Welcome to sailboat ownership! Some humorous things I have been told are:

B.O.A.T. - Break Out Another Thousand
A BOAT is a hole in the water that you throw money into.
Owning a sailboat is like taking a shower while ripping up hundred dollar bills.

Just think what it could cost if you have a mainsheet failure and your main, boom, rig get damaged. Hopefully your ins will cover some of it; if they don't require a survey to determine cause.

Quote:
I don't know, either. I don't know as it's possible to find out. They're original equipment, which means they were put on the boat 31 years ago. I'm not sure it really matters. They were put in in an end-boom sheeting configuration, and we're at 2/3 to 3/4 boom now.
All of these things point to one thing. Likely undersized, getting old enough to have cracking sheaves; basically in need of replacement. Whoever moved it in 4 feet without re-sizing it really did not know what they were doing. It was designed for end-boom loads; it should be replaced with something that is properly sized.

Quote:
35-40 kts! Holy mackerel! If I'm out in 35-40 kts, even if they're just puffs, and I don't have two reefs in, I don't belong in that boat on the water.
You'd be amazed at what your boat's hull and standing rig is designed to handle. I think you are a little overwhelmed with the boat and it heeling while she sails in 'moderate' conditions. It takes some getting used to; and someday you may want to sail in heavier conditions with less reefing. Or, I could be totally wrong; your particular boat may have too much mainsail area relative to the Jib and become a handfull when the wind pipes up. I learned to sail on a Columbia 24 and it was great until the wind hit 20 kts and then it was very uncomfortable because the main was way too big; rudder too small.

Quote:
The blocks I have on order are good to 19 kts (SWL) and 27 kts (breaking load), with a full main. Now that might be pushing the envelope, assuming we're still running un-reefed in 19 kt winds and we're getting 27 kt gusts. Personally, I rather doubt I'll be sailing in that weatherw/o at least one reef in. (The PO, a very experienced sailor and racer, used to put the 1st reef in at around 20 kts, dropped from the #1 to the #3 at 25 kts, put the 2nd reef in approaching 30 kts, and dropped the #3 at above that, IIRC.)
Way undersized IMHO. You never want to put your rigging in the potential failure zone when sailing under normal/moderate wind conditions. What about the event of a hard gybe? What if you can't get a reef set because the halyard sticks? An unforseen problem can be compounded if something (like your mainsheet rig) physically breaks while you are under full sail.

Quote:
But The Admiral ain't goin' for it this time and believe the Lewmar blocks we have on order will be up to the task.
If it were me I would either mutiny or go AWOL. I don't think Lewmar 50mm blocks are correct for your application (good god man, predicted breaking load at ~25kts??), and I pray for you and all those who sail onboard your boat. Unknowing, self-proclaimed, Admirals who don't make safety conscious decisions should be keel-hauled!

Last edited by KeelHaulin; 09-25-2007 at 09:02 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #67  
Old 09-25-2007
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
I like to go out when there's a SCA posted. I was out earlier this year on a day where someone had reported some boats had broken free of their moorings... and was out sailing in that. Didn't see any powerboats that day for some reason. The gusts were easily up to the mid-30s...
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #68  
Old 09-25-2007
Here .. Pull this
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,031
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Sailormann will become famous soon enough
Quote:
All these "small expenses" are adding up to be one rather large expense. We're being nickel-and-dime'd to death. We started out with a $13k boat. By the time taxes, club/slip/storage fees, new/additional equipment (good GPS, etc.) and needed upgrades/repairs (head rebuild, oil-changing system for the A4, etc.) get done with us, we'll be up to somewhere in the vicinity of $20k. The Admiral is getting twitchy. I don't blame her.
Gee Sunshine - hate to ruin your day - but a 30 foot boat costs between 40 and 50 K. You can spend it at the front-end or you can spend it over the first two years, but you're going spend it Perhaps the Admiral can pick up a part-tme job to help out for a while ???
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #69  
Old 09-25-2007
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Sailormann has a very good point... if you bought a boat that needed work, you've saved money on the front end, but it has to be paid in either parts or sweat equity somewhere along the line.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #70  
Old 09-26-2007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,710
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
SEMIJim will become famous soon enough SEMIJim will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
Well; let's just say that people who have not "crunched the numbers" are not well enough informed to give you the advice you are looking for.
I gave 'em the numbers. A couple replied that they felt Harken's calculators "over-spec" things. (My words, not theirs.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I guess that I have a different perspective than your local sailors because heavy wind is the norm on SF Bay and it's not uncommon to see the racing sailboats heeled to 60 deg, dismastings, catamarans getting flipped, boats in distress, etc.
I don't believe (the key word here is "believe") that's common, here. I'll have to ask about it. But your point is valid, nonetheless, if for no other reason than we someday plan to cruise with this boat. So what we're experiencing here, or likely to experience here, isn't necessarily what we'll experience elsewhere. Indeed: Even just going across the state, to Lake Michigan, will be quite different. (I understand Lake Michigan can become quite harsh, quite quickly, quite unexpectedly.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
Welcome to sailboat ownership! Some humorous things I have been told are:

B.O.A.T. - Break Out Another Thousand
A BOAT is a hole in the water that you throw money into.
Owning a sailboat is like taking a shower while ripping up hundred dollar bills.
I think that's supposed to be "standing under a cold shower" . Heard 'em . Related 'em to The Admiral. She didn't see why these things should be true. She's finding out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
Just think what it could cost if you have a mainsheet failure and your main, boom, rig get damaged.
Precisely one of my points, night before last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
Way undersized IMHO. You never want to put your rigging in the potential failure zone when sailing under normal/moderate wind conditions. What about the event of a hard gybe?
Another point I made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
What if you can't get a reef set because the halyard sticks? An unforseen problem can be compounded if something (like your mainsheet rig) physically breaks while you are under full sail.
Good argument. I'll keep that one in reserve for the next time .

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
If it were me I would either mutiny or go AWOL.
I mutinied. I called up and canceled the order late yesterday afternoon. (Made it just in time, too.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I don't think Lewmar 50mm blocks are correct for your application
60mm, actually. It's not so much the 60mm, but the SWL and breaking strength.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
(good god man, predicted breaking load at ~25kts??),
27 kts, but your point is valid.

Now I just need to decide between the Lewmar 80mm fiddles, the Harken 4:1 solution (57mm dual block, 76mm fiddle), the Harken 6:1 solution, or maybe the Harken 4:1/8:1 self-contained system. (I'd really like to go w/Lewmar, but they don't appear to do anything with a ratchet, other than fiddle blocks.) Decisions, decisions. The lower I go, the faster I can move the boom and the less mainsheet I'll have on the cockpit sole, but the more strength it'll take to use. The higher I go, the slower the boom moves, the more sheet on the cockpit sole, but the more likely The Admiral, and perhaps I, will be able to deal with it. I think a tour of the club's slips is in order, as Sailormann suggested.

To you, KeelHaulin, and the others: Thanks for patiently continuing to beat me up on this issue. Who knows: Perhaps y'all saved our boat--maybe even our lives.

Jim
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
mainsheet adjustment dch Gear & Maintenance 4 09-23-2007 11:40 AM
mainsheet block doctom Gear & Maintenance 8 02-26-2007 10:39 AM
Mainsheet rubbing vang... lmitchell Gear & Maintenance 16 12-10-2006 05:06 PM
Mainsheet traveller capttack Gear & Maintenance 1 08-26-2004 07:32 AM
Mainsheet Systems Dan Dickison Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 10-22-2001 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:18 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.