Rocna 40 didn't Set!!! - Page 3 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 
  #21  
Old 04-18-2011
fallard's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mystic
Posts: 898
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 5
fallard is on a distinguished road
I think LinekinBayCD has missed the point. The windjammers that have catheads can carry a fisherman style anchor and I've seen the Mystic Whaler, in particular, use it to good effect in the deeper waters in Block Island's Great Salt Pond, where it always seems to blow 20 kts. I doubt windjammer owners or their insurance underwriters care as much about "salty" looks as having a secure anchor when the wind pipes up. The folks that sail windjammers have a lot more experience than we recreational sailors and to assume they would sell safety short for "salty" looks is probably ill-informed.

Apparently John Rousmaniere (the Annapolis Book of Seamanship) hasn't heard that the fisherman's anchor(aka yachtsman) is obsolete, either, but maybe he hasn't been swayed by the hype on "new generation" Rocna/Manson anchors. Perhaps my information is out of date and he has "seen the light" on "new generation" anchors. Correct me if I am wrong.

I have been thinking about getting a stowable, foldable fisherman's anchor as an alternative for anchoring in a weedy, muddy bottom, where conventional anchors don't work well. I would agree the tradeoff is that you need at least a 50% heavier anchor than a CQR, for comparison, to get equivalent holding power. Another advantage in a crowded anchorage is that they are less sensitive to scope.

Of course, my primary strategy would be to avoid such areas, but sometimes you get caught.

The bottom line here is that a fishermans/yachtsman/Herreshoff anchor is known to be a far better anchor in a weedy bottom than my CQR, high-tensile Danforth, or Fortress--all of which I carry when cruising--or your Rocna. So, I would dispute your claim than it wouldn't "hold anywhere near as well as..."new technology" anchors" in this case. I otherwise agree with you that they are heavy and awkward to handle, but dragging in a crowded anchorage can be inconvenient, too.

Perhaps you don't see these anchors in tests because they are not popular with the typical recreational sailor, not necessarily because they don't have a place in a competent anchoring strategy.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #22  
Old 04-20-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 670
Thanks: 6
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
LinekinBayCD is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
I think LinekinBayCD has missed the point. The windjammers that have catheads can carry a fisherman style anchor and I've seen the Mystic Whaler, in particular, use it to good effect in the deeper waters in Block Island's Great Salt Pond, where it always seems to blow 20 kts. I doubt windjammer owners or their insurance underwriters care as much about "salty" looks as having a secure anchor when the wind pipes up. The folks that sail windjammers have a lot more experience than we recreational sailors and to assume they would sell safety short for "salty" looks is probably ill-informed.

Apparently John Rousmaniere (the Annapolis Book of Seamanship) hasn't heard that the fisherman's anchor(aka yachtsman) is obsolete, either, but maybe he hasn't been swayed by the hype on "new generation" Rocna/Manson anchors. Perhaps my information is out of date and he has "seen the light" on "new generation" anchors. Correct me if I am wrong.

I have been thinking about getting a stowable, foldable fisherman's anchor as an alternative for anchoring in a weedy, muddy bottom, where conventional anchors don't work well. I would agree the tradeoff is that you need at least a 50% heavier anchor than a CQR, for comparison, to get equivalent holding power. Another advantage in a crowded anchorage is that they are less sensitive to scope.

Of course, my primary strategy would be to avoid such areas, but sometimes you get caught.

The bottom line here is that a fishermans/yachtsman/Herreshoff anchor is known to be a far better anchor in a weedy bottom than my CQR, high-tensile Danforth, or Fortress--all of which I carry when cruising--or your Rocna. So, I would dispute your claim than it wouldn't "hold anywhere near as well as..."new technology" anchors" in this case. I otherwise agree with you that they are heavy and awkward to handle, but dragging in a crowded anchorage can be inconvenient, too.

Perhaps you don't see these anchors in tests because they are not popular with the typical recreational sailor, not necessarily because they don't have a place in a competent anchoring strategy.
I didn't mean to suggest that those Windjammer captains have not properly sized their ground tackle. However, I do believe that they could get the same holding power their fisherman anchors provide from a new generation anchor like a Rocna or Manson Supreme for a fraction of the weight of the fisherman anchors they typically use. But that would not work with the "look" that is part of their business. You could get the same holding power from a "rock on a rope" if the rock was big and heavy enough. That's where the new technology comes to into play, same or better performance but with less weight, quicker setting and resetting.

As to the Annapolis Book of Seamanship, I beleive the most recent edition goes back to 1998-1999 way before most of the new generation anchors became widely available or maybe before they were designed. I have a copy amd it's a great reference but there is a lot of outdated info in there. So if Rousmaniere is extoling the the virtues of a fisherman its a little like a guy raving about his horse draw wagon before ever riding in a car.

If there is a anchor test out there that indicates that a fisherman can hang (pun intended) pound for pound with the new gen anchors I'd like to see it.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #23  
Old 04-20-2011
fallard's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mystic
Posts: 898
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 5
fallard is on a distinguished road
There's no argument that a fishermans anchor with equivalent holding power in good bottom conditions is much heavier (~50%) than a lightweight anchor of the plow/spade type and very much heavier (~500%) than a Fortress anchor.

However, the fishermans anchor has a long-standing reputation for penetrating a weedy, muddy bottom when the lighter weight anchors can't. In this case, the fishermans anchor--pound for pound-- is more than a match for the light anchors, including the "new generation" anchors.

I'm certainly am not recommending the fisherman anchor as a primary anchor for a recreational sailor, but it has its place. I carry 3 different types of anchors when cruising and have considered adding a folding fishermans anchor to my inventory. My only reservation is that I would only use this rather expensive anchor in circumstances that I try hard to avoid.

BTW, If you've read Rousmaniere, you wouldn't state that he was "extolling" any anchor type as much as he was providing a comparative analysis of strengths and weaknesses. I certainly didn't detect him "raving" about anything.

The experienced sailor knows that there is no one anchor suitable for all conditions. "New technology" doesn't change that.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #24  
Old 04-23-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 670
Thanks: 6
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
LinekinBayCD is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
There's no argument that a fishermans anchor with equivalent holding power in good bottom conditions is much heavier (~50%) than a lightweight anchor of the plow/spade type and very much heavier (~500%) than a Fortress anchor.

However, the fishermans anchor has a long-standing reputation for penetrating a weedy, muddy bottom when the lighter weight anchors can't. In this case, the fishermans anchor--pound for pound-- is more than a match for the light anchors, including the "new generation" anchors.

I'm certainly am not recommending the fisherman anchor as a primary anchor for a recreational sailor, but it has its place. I carry 3 different types of anchors when cruising and have considered adding a folding fishermans anchor to my inventory. My only reservation is that I would only use this rather expensive anchor in circumstances that I try hard to avoid.

BTW, If you've read Rousmaniere, you wouldn't state that he was "extolling" any anchor type as much as he was providing a comparative analysis of strengths and weaknesses. I certainly didn't detect him "raving" about anything.

The experienced sailor knows that there is no one anchor suitable for all conditions. "New technology" doesn't change that.
"There are no magic solutions but there are constant advances in technology. Not too many people are using a rock on a rope anymore." This was my original comment. I don't really see any problem with that. I could have added that not too many people are using fisherman anchors either. Back in the 1920's all you saw hanging from the bows of private yachts where fisherman’s. Now you don't because advances in technology have provided new and better options relegating the fisherman to specialty situations, such as penetrating weedy bottoms. The new generations also are building a reputation for good performance in this type of bottom and don't need to be relegated only to specialty situations. I consider that an advance in anchor technology and a good thing. I'm not worrying about looks or tradition in my anchor, only what works.

My copy of the Annapolis Book of Seamanship is on my boat 500 miles north so I can’t re-read JR's comments. However, I do know that whatever he wrote was written years before the development of the new gen anchors such as the Rocna or Manson Supreme and therefore his comments can't be used as a basis for the comparison of the fisherman with new generation anchors. Who knows he might "rave" about the new gen anchors in the next edition.

Last edited by LinekinBayCD; 04-23-2011 at 06:46 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #25  
Old 04-23-2011
fallard's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mystic
Posts: 898
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 5
fallard is on a distinguished road
The "rock on a rope" comment about older anchor types comes across as hyperbole, implying "new technology" anchors like the Rocna have made them obsolete. The "new generation" anchors you are extolling are rather minor variations on existing themes, using artifices to work around patents, in some cases. The sharper edges on some of the anchors that have appeared in the past 25 years do seem to help a lightweight anchor "bite", as is the case with the Fortress anchors.

The worst anchoring situation that I am likely to encounter involves a weedy/muddy bottom, often in a crowded harbor where you don't have any other options and have to work repeatedly to get past the weeds fouling your anchor to get a set. In this situation, you'd like an anchor with the penetrating power of a fisherman, the burying ability of a plow, and the holding power of a danforth--all on limited scope. This combination doesn't exist in a single anchor yet.

The assumption that the Rocna type will provide good performance in this situation is counter-intuitive. The Rocna is a variation on the plow/spade theme and would suffer the same problem in weeds: that is, a gnarly, weedy clump clogging the relatively small "mouth" of the anchor and acting like the sheath on a knife to prevent "bite". At this point the Rocna becomes a "rock on a rope"--and a very light one at that. All the subtleties of the "new technology" are moot.

I agree with your position that tradition or looks are not the issue, but "new" does not equate to "better" and the marketing videos and the limited testing done by the various "independent" testers don't tell the whole story. Having followed anchor tests for decades, I also listen to the collective wisdom of experienced sailors (Rousmaniere being only one) and draw my own conclusions. That said, I don't see a new anchor in my inventory anytime soon but, were I to add fourth anchor, it more likely would be a folding Herreshoff (as a second tier backup) than a Rocna.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #26  
Old 04-23-2011
SVAuspicious's Avatar
Mermaid Hunter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 2,973
Thanks: 0
Thanked 57 Times in 47 Posts
Rep Power: 8
SVAuspicious will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
The "rock on a rope" comment about older anchor types comes across as hyperbole, implying "new technology" anchors like the Rocna have made them obsolete.
I think the new generation anchors like Spade, Rocna, and Raya HAVE made older designs obsolete. Obsolete doesn't mean the older designs don't work any longer anymore than the advent of disk brakes on cars meant drum brakes don't continue to work; it simply means there is a much better solution available.

I drove a car with drum brakes long after disk brakes were on the market, but when I bought a newer car it for sure had disk brakes.

I've anchored in various boats with a cinder block and rope, grapnel, mushroom, CQR, Bruce, Danforth, Delta, Spade, and Rocna (that I can think of offhand). The new generation anchors are substantially better in the range of bottoms I have encountered in 35 years of sailing and five years as a delivery skipper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
The worst anchoring situation that I am likely to encounter involves a weedy/muddy bottom, often in a crowded harbor where you don't have any other options and have to work repeatedly to get past the weeds fouling your anchor to get a set.
A Rocna served very nicely along the Eastern shore outside Settlement Harbour (too shallow inside for me) at Great Guana Cay in the Abacos. No drama associated with anchoring and we didn't budge an inch overnight. We did get a lot of entertainment as charter boats tried to anchor near us on older design anchors and failed.

Now I'll be the first to say that technique is at least as important as the hunk of metal on the end of your rode, and I'd like to think I have more practice than the average bareboat charterer. Nonetheless, based on my personal experience I wouldn't spend my hard-earned money on anything but one of the new generation anchors or, for some applications, a Fortress.

Your money, your choice.
__________________
sail fast and eat well, dave
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks.com
beware "cut and paste" sailors.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #27  
Old 04-23-2011
fallard's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mystic
Posts: 898
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 5
fallard is on a distinguished road
SV Auspicious: Have you seen a charter boat anchor with a "new generation" anchor? I haven't. When you look at the range of skill levels among charterers, you'd think they'd be equipped with the "new generation" anchors if they were more than incrementally better that the older designs.

I'm still waiting for a portable helical anchor that you can deploy from your boat. Anything less is a compromise.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #28  
Old 04-24-2011
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 4
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Raven38 is on a distinguished road
Red face

Did you do what Rocna recommend ie rode 3x 5x 8x depending on conditions we found that it doesn't like plastic bags or towels on the seabed and weed has the same effect. No the bottom before anchoring we have had ours which is 30kg on a 40fter in 60knots and no problems
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #29  
Old 04-24-2011
SVAuspicious's Avatar
Mermaid Hunter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 2,973
Thanks: 0
Thanked 57 Times in 47 Posts
Rep Power: 8
SVAuspicious will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
SV Auspicious: Have you seen a charter boat anchor with a "new generation" anchor? ...

I'm still waiting for a portable helical anchor that you can deploy from your boat. Anything less is a compromise.
I have not. I have never seen a charter boat with anything other than the anchor delivered with it by the manufacturer. In the old days that meant a lot of CQRs, followed by a short period of Bruces, and then Delta anchors almost exclusively.

The helical idea is a hoot. I have a vision of a great crane on the foredeck with a hydraulically rotated helical anchor. The picture brings all new meaning to anchor dance. *grin*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven38 View Post
Did you do what Rocna recommend ie rode 3x 5x 8x depending on conditions we found that it doesn't like plastic bags or towels on the seabed and weed has the same effect. No the bottom before anchoring we have had ours which is 30kg on a 40fter in 60knots and no problems
The only time I've been able to drag a Rocna was when the anchor landed squarely on a full trash bag on the bottom of Baltimore's Inner Harbor. It was an interesting evolution.
__________________
sail fast and eat well, dave
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks.com
beware "cut and paste" sailors.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #30  
Old 04-24-2011
Maine Sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 5,274
Thanks: 9
Thanked 114 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
SV Auspicious: Have you seen a charter boat anchor with a "new generation" anchor? I haven't. When you look at the range of skill levels among charterers, you'd think they'd be equipped with the "new generation" anchors if they were more than incrementally better that the older designs.

I'm still waiting for a portable helical anchor that you can deploy from your boat. Anything less is a compromise.
Spoken like some who has not experienced a new gen anchor up close & personal. You really should try one before making your judgment. There is a vast difference in performance but you would not know until you actually used one.

I used CQR's for darn close to 20 years, also Bruce, Fortress, Danforth, Supermax, Spade, Delta, Manson Supreme and Rocna. I still to this day own all those anchors except for the Delta which I let go with the last boat.

When you physically own all those anchors, and have experience with them, and then still choose to use a CQR then your comments would be a LOT more credible. The CQR's are the last anchors in my quiver I would dust off again and put back into service and I still own two genuine CQR's.

Thankfully the new gen anchors, specifically Spade, Manson Supreme & Rocna have allowed us to re-visit anchorages we had written off during our CQR days. Not all new gen anchors perform the same & I will not use my Supermax as a primary and I base my decisions purely on performance. In two of these idyllic spots we could only get a CQR set by diving on it and forcing it to bite the hard bottom. Now days we simply drop and set the anchor.

All anchors can work well, and there is NO best anchor, but some of the new gens are quite dramatic improvements in performance..
__________________
______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.



Last edited by Maine Sail; 05-01-2011 at 08:43 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Proper ground tackle for long island sound and new england jasonr575 Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 66 07-15-2007 12:05 AM
Anchor Choice? foothillscuba Gear & Maintenance 45 01-30-2007 09:59 AM
Using the Asymmetrical Spinnaker Brian Hancock Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 08-30-2004 08:00 PM
Refining Your Downwind Sails Brian Hancock Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 04-06-2004 08:00 PM
Set and Drift Made Simple Jim Sexton Seamanship Articles 0 04-19-2000 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:33 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.