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  #1  
Old 09-28-2007
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SEMIJim will become famous soon enough SEMIJim will become famous soon enough
Damaged Shroud

[Note: I'm starting a new thread, rather then hauling the one where this started off-topic.]

I had allowed as how I had a busted shroud I planned to have a rigger address. Follows a partial quote of sailingdog's response and my response to his response .

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
SEMIJim-

Just be aware that you don't need a rigger to replace a shroud with broken strands.
I know. (But thanks for the info, anyway.) Thing is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
However, if the lower shroud has broken strands in it, and it wasn't due to impact or some other type of damage to that specific shroud, then there's a very good chance that much of your rigging is in need of replacement---especially if it is all of the same age.
That thought occurred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Did you have a rigging survey done when you bought the boat??
Yes and no. The surveyor examined it, but he told me right up front he was not a rigger and that, to properly inspect the rigging, I needed to pay a rigger to do it. He overlooked the shroud with the broken strands, so I guess he wasn't kidding. Quite honestly: I relied upon what the surveyor did do and the seller--his use of the boat and his honesty. (He had told me about one shroud or stay he had noticed was marginal when they were putting her back in the water one spring, so he replaced it and, proactively, whatever was opposite it.) The shroud in question had a wrap of tape around it, just above the turnbuckle. I missed it, myself, until, just a couple weeks ago, I finally noticed the tape, it dawned on me "Huh... the others don't have that," and I removed it. I'm sure the seller knew of this and I'm equally sure he simply forgot all about it. The aft lower shrouds on a P30 aren't real critical. In fact: One guy on the P30 mailing list had a rigger tell him they were completely unnecessary and could safely be done-away with.

So, anyway, my thought was to have a surveyor examine the rigging once it's all down after haul-out.

Funny thing about the two or three (?) strands of this one shroud that are damaged: There's no sign of trauma above or below them, they're separated pretty much right at the top of the turnbuckle, and they're laying right in the twist of the cable. Almost looks like they'd been cut, except it would've had to have been done by pixies with very tiny saws or cutters. Artifact of the crimping process? Weak point that just separated under stress/age? None of the other stays or shrouds show anything amiss on the deck side of things. No corrosion. Nothing. Least-wise not that I can see.

Jim
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Old 09-28-2007
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A rigging survey is an excellent investment, if for no other reason than peace of mind. I had one done on my boat when I bought it and some of the running rigging was found to be shot. I replaced it. I feel good knowing exactly what the condition of the entire rig is. If I hadn't had it done I'd be worrying about it all the time. Good luck.
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Old 09-28-2007
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SemiJim-

Sounds like crevice corrosion at work. BTW, don't tape stainless steel rigging. The tape traps water and helps cause crevice corrosion occur. This is more the case on saltwater, than on fresh, but still taping of the rigging should be avoided at all times.

You need a rigger to inspect the rigging, not a surveyor, and I believe they should inspect it while it is still up.
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SD,

The only rigging on which tape is currently applied is that associated with the Tuff Luff, incl. the pre-feeder.

I'm certain the only reason for the tape on that shroud was too keep the broken wires from popping out, getting snagged on things or snagging things, etc.

Jim
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Old 09-28-2007
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Tape (or other coatings on ss) is not an issue if your boat is never going to see salt water.
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Old 09-28-2007
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Are you sure? My vinyl coated lifellines I just replaced were rusted to all hell and this boat spends a lot of time on freshwater.

I also had some crevice rust on exposed shrouds where chafe tape was wrapped around a spreader tip instead of using those little booties.

is is just not an issue because the rust that forms from freshwater is not as bad as salt water rust? Explain for me please!
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The problem with stainless and sea water is chlorides. Chlorides can cause stress corrosion cracking on stainless steel at levels as low as 150 ppm. Sea water is ~20,000 ppm chloride.

My boat is a freshwater boat, the only salt it ever gets is what blows off when I'm seasoning steaks on the bbq. Chloride content of the Great Lakes is between 5 ppm (Superior) and 20 ppm (Ontario). In fresh water stainless is just that, shiny bright, no rust. None, nada, zip, zero, nil. James is in MI, just down the river a ways, maybe one lake down and on the other side. We're a loooong way from the ocean.

If there are places where the sea water dries up, salt crystals accumulate and it makes the corrosion issue more severe. That's why any type of coating over stainless steel is bad for salt water boats. Furthermore, you can't see the impending failure, which is more dangerous. It's the same for scuba diving. I'd get home from a scuba trip to the briny deep and my ss gear would be all rusty. I'd have to rinse it all really good and get out the metal polish and shine it all up again. I'd never see any rust after diving in fresh water. Same rules too regarding coverings for those that were serious, no tank boots, no hose protectors. Those just create places for corrosion cells to start.

In the case of part time fresh water, it's probably not as bad as full time exposure to salt water, but still bad enough to make the problems that you saw on your lifelines.

Last edited by CapnHand; 09-28-2007 at 04:33 PM.
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Lancer28,

Our boat has always been a freshwater boat. She's never seen saltwater. She has absolutely no rust, no corrosion (of any significance) and no pocking/bubbling anywhere--except the (chrome-plated, I assume) ring around the drain in the galley sink. Even that shroud I took the tape off of looked just fine, except for the two or three broken (apparently) strands.

I have, in my life, seen some stainless surfaces develop a kind of "surface rust." But even that, when I've seen it, just wiped off with a bit of WD-40 or Tri-Flow or Boe-Shield or something.

Jim
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Old 09-28-2007
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There is failure of wire due to corrosion, which may or may not be the case; or there is failure due to metal fatigue. If the shroud in question is original it's ~30 years old and is probably failing due to metal fatigue. The swage is acting as a stress concentration for the wire strands, not allowing it to bend/flex as it can in the middle of the wire. Over time the wire will begin to crack and eventually the cracking will work all the way across the strands.

Sounds to me like it is time to replace all of the rigging including turnbuckles, tangs, forks, pins, etc. with new. I think that the aft-lowers on your boat are necessary; if these were not needed it would be the last location that you would see a failure of the wire. I would ask the PO if he replaced the uppers (main) shrouds, the date, and the rigger who made them. If you can obtain this information it will give you a starting point for what might need replacement now; or you can replace all of the rigging and save the shrouds that were previously replaced for emergency spares.

At 30 years old; "it's time" to do a rigging refit. You don't need a rigger or surveyor to tell you that; if you do have a rigger inspect it he will likely suggest that everything be replaced based on it's age. Be sure to pull and inspect the chainplates and replace the fasteners when you pull the mast down.
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I'd second KellHaulin's advice + You can easily (but at a cost) create all the shrouds yourself using StaLok or Norseman terminals. As labour cost is a huge part of the total price, however, the net result for you will be money saved. It's a very easy job, and you should be able to find instructions if you search for it. If not, just PM me.
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