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  #1  
Old 10-15-2007
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harken ratchomatics vs non rachets......

So just what does the ratchomatic do for me vs a non version for the about $30 in a 57MM size when it comes to a mainsheet system? part#'s for you that need this reference is 2630 vs a 2618. I may go with a 75mm part, which would be a 2669 vs a 2686 in the harken catalog.

While I am at this, I currently have a 4-1 system, I may go to a 6-1, as the part numbers indicate, or the 4-1/16-1 macro/mcro adjustment system. Either way, I figure the Carbo ball bearing blocks will be easier to use vs my original Goiot system with no ball bearings. Now to decide if I need the 57 vs 75 mm blocks to.

Thanks for input
marty
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Wow, deja vu all over again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
So just what does the ratchomatic do for me vs a non version for the about $30 in a 57MM size when it comes to a mainsheet system?
Just like Harken's literature says: The Ratchmatic (note: No "o" in the name) will automatically engage/disengage the ratcheting based on load. Then there are the manually switchable ones and the ones with no ratcheting at all. Ratcheting makes it a bit easier to manage the mainsheet under load, as the sheave turns freely in the trimming direction, but the line has to fight the friction of the sheave in the easing direction when the ratchet is engaged. (You can adjust the Ratchmatics for what load at which the ratchet engages.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
part#'s for you that need this reference is 2630 vs a 2618. I may go with a 75mm part, which would be a 2669 vs a 2686 in the harken catalog.
Use Harken's "Compu Spec" and their load calculator page to determine what you need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
While I am at this, I currently have a 4-1 system, I may go to a 6-1, as the part numbers indicate, or the 4-1/16-1 macro/mcro adjustment system.
We went from a 4:1 system consisting of ball-bearing-less Schaefer fiddle blocks to a Harken 6:1 system with 57mm Triple Carbo blocks (2604 on the top, 2630 on the bottom). We went with the Ratchmatic on the bottom block, as the manual on/off ratcheting system required you actually stick something into the center of the block to flip the "switch" back-and-forth. (Which struck us both as exceedingly un-handy.) We went to 6:1 mainly for The Admiral's sake. Were it just me, I probably would've stuck with 4:1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Either way, I figure the Carbo ball bearing blocks will be easier to use vs my original Goiot system with no ball bearings.
Unquestionably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Now to decide if I need the 57 vs 75 mm blocks to.
How big is your boat? When I suggested to Alex (s/v Giulietta) that we were considering 75mm blocks for our Pearson 30, he told me "Absolutely unnecessary for a boat your size. I use 75mm on my boat, and it's 42 feet." The man who helped us straighten-out our rigging a couple Sundays ago felt that I'd over-done it even at 57mm. He felt 40mm would've been sufficient.

Here's the thread I started on a similar question: Unmanageable Mainsheet. It's quite possible many of your questions will be answered there.

Jim
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Old 10-15-2007
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Jim,

Your pearson is similar in size to my jeanneau arcadia in size etc, but a bit more modern in design etc from teh mid 80's, one of the last sort a kinda IOR half ton style boats, but not truly an IOR style, IIRC your main is 200-225 vs my current one at 160, new one in spring with full roach/battens will be 190'ish. One of my Harken spec sheets came with equal specs for the 6-1 except for the boom block(s)> As I currently have two singles for the 4-1, I would probably be doing a 2602 and 2600, ie a 2 sheeve and single sheeve vs the 2604 triple you went with. Local parts approx $ prices, 100 for the two blocks vs 90 for a 2604 triple sheave block. Not sure which option is better, cost is not worth arguing over, other than which is better and gives me more options etc down the road!

Current system is 2 1/4" pulleys, so about 57MM or there abouts, so as you mention, no need to go bigger! I am not sure I really want to go smaller. I am racing a bit, had a single reef a week ago in 25-30 knot winds. I would prefer to be a size big over just enough.

The 6-1 would be for the admiral's sake, along with those moments when racing that things get really fun! I noticed pulling on the main sheet that it was hard, not overly hard, but hard in those winds. I also have the harken windward 4-1 car as I recall you showing a pic of at this time. I may go with the 2 boom blocks as this may allow me to do the 4-1 micro later down the road with out much work, vs a single as you have done, may not be as simple, ie having to buy two blocks for the boom along with the micro adjustment blocks. BUT, it might be better in the long run to start with a 4-1, then add the micro if I need a bit more leverage etc. the main difference in you and I from what I can tell, is your more of a cruiser, I am beer can racing etc, along with some day sails and a few weekends etc.

You described the ratchet system as I was picturing it to work. The extra seems like a good thing, in case someone loses a grip on the sheet, so it would not loose whatever pulling in you have done etc.

i did see your uncontrollable mainsheet thread, but did not recall seeing the ratchmatic info in it. Then again, with 30-40 posts, things become a blur when trying to go thru threads like that!

Marty

Last edited by blt2ski; 10-15-2007 at 10:03 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Jim,

... IIRC your main is 200-225 vs my current one at 160, new one in spring with full roach/battens will be 190'ish.
Nope. My sail plan calls for 197 or 198.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
The 6-1 would be for the admiral's sake, along with those moments when racing that things get really fun! I noticed pulling on the main sheet that it was hard, not overly hard, but hard in those winds.
Ours was unworkable on a beat in anything over about 12 kts or so. You might want that extra purchase after you add another 30. Are you end-boom sheeted, mid-boom, or what? That'll make a big difference. If we were still end-boom sheeted, a 4:1 system probably would've been fine. But being as we're now about 2/3-boom sheeted, with 6:1 we'll end up with about the same work required as 4:1, end-boom sheeted.

Speaking of the boom: I was kneeling up a bit high, and leaning too far forward at one point during the race, while handing a jib sheet when we were coming about, and the end of the boom came within a couple inches of taking my nose right off my face. That would've ruined my whole day. I really need to learn to keep my head down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
the main difference in you and I from what I can tell, is your more of a cruiser, I am beer can racing etc, along with some day sails and a few weekends etc.
That's what we've been doing. Well, club racing on weekends, now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
i did see your uncontrollable mainsheet thread, but did not recall seeing the ratchmatic info in it.
I mentioned it in the last post, IIRC. I don't believe I mentioned the part number there. We were going to go with the 2141, which is a manual on/off lever for the ratchet.

Jim
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Jim,

Just spent 30'ish minutes trying to go thru your thread again. Reality is, your windward car system is exactly where mine is, I could post a pic, but why. My boom/foot is 10' vs your 13 or so. Blocks are about 2' from the end of the boom vs your 5'ish ft. Probably the same distance from the mast tho! Luff I about a foot shorter, 32.3 vs 33.X going on memory here.

Harken does not have my boat in there system, but a sunlight 30 is the same hull/designer - tony castro, different deck and a slightly different sail plan, so I am figuring this is going to be really close to what I need.

"MY" inclination is to start with 1566 MR fiddle w hexaratchet and becket dual 2600 blocks on the boom, ie 4-1 start. The if need be, add the 2638 and 2658 40mm fine tune if I find I want a bit more help to 16-1. The real difference between starting with a 16-1, is the 1566 becomes a 1565 without the becket! Unless the becket gets in the way after adding the fine tune, then the additional $10-20 upfront for the becket system is not that much.

I appear to have an advantage over you, in that on my boom, I have the spots to put upwards of three pulleys on it. Where I seem to recall you only having one pulley attachment point.


I have not had to worry about my nose, but have come close to taking off my head! Fun things to think about........I should try specing a 6-1 with 4-1 fine tune and see what is spec'd...........hmmmmmmm..........

marty
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Old 10-16-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
"MY" inclination is to start with 1566 MR fiddle w hexaratchet and becket dual 2600 blocks on the boom, ie 4-1 start. The if need be, add the 2638 and 2658 40mm fine tune if I find I want a bit more help to 16-1. The real difference between starting with a 16-1, is the 1566 becomes a 1565 without the becket! Unless the becket gets in the way after adding the fine tune, then the additional $10-20 upfront for the becket system is not that much.

I appear to have an advantage over you, in that on my boom, I have the spots to put upwards of three pulleys on it. Where I seem to recall you only having one pulley attachment point.


I have not had to worry about my nose, but have come close to taking off my head! Fun things to think about........I should try specing a 6-1 with 4-1 fine tune and see what is spec'd...........hmmmmmmm..........
YES! Marty; your description above is almost exactly what I suggested that Jim do. On your boat the sheet loads are a bit less because your main is smaller and your boom attachment is further aft. 4:1/16:1 makes sense unless you are regularly in heavy wind. The loading calculator gives numbers that are reasonable for the 1566 and adding in a second 4:1 later will give you fine trim. I suggest that you try re-using your existing 4:1 hardware to get the fine-trim; maybe you don't need new hardware for that part!

The alternative is a Gross/Fine system like the Harken 383 4:1/8:1. An all-in-one solution but since you have extra bails on your boom a 4:1/16:1 is a better choice and cheaper to boot! 6:1/24:1 would be a VERY sweet setup!

Jim-

I understand your difficulty in deciding on and getting the correct blocks for your boat. To me it seems that your setup is an "in-between" on the loads VS what the various ranges for Harken and Lewmar sell. Based on the numbers that the Harken Calculator gives for your boat; I really don't think that your setup is "overkill"; and 40mm blocks are definitely too small (based on Harken's calculator). Again; you need to realize that unless the load calc's are verified the selection of proper sheave size is purely guesswork. I don't care if the person you talked to has a PhD in Physics; if he didn't do the calc's he can't correctly size the blocks at a glance. There are WAY too many boats sailing around with substandard running rigging. Usually these boats are older IOR and pre-IOR era boats with heavily built rigging, hull, spars and TINY blocks and controls. Newer boats have much better/heavier hardware installed pre-purchase (except for the winches); thanks to the use of the load calculators during the design of the yacht. PLEASE don't perpetuate the belief that "smaller hardware is a better choice because it is less expensive"!

The ONLY time I would say that you need to spec your hardware at or near the failure limits is if you are a HIGHLY COMPETETIVE RACER who has a strpped out race-only boat, lots of money to spend on light/strong hardware, and doesn't care much about the associated costs if a running rigging failure causes collateral damage in the heat of battle. There are MANY people like this on SF Bay; they have yearly racing budgets that easily exceed the value of my 60k 8kt shitbox and they are living their orgasmic dream throwing money to the 40kt winds in The Slot. I'm more than happy to buy their hand-me-downs at the swap meets so I can afford some deacent gear that is oversized for my boat; while the sailmakers and riggers are making a fortune off THOSE GUYS on yearly refits.

If you are wise in your hardware choices the first time; the equipment will last until that next big refit or it's time to move up to the 14kt future-shitbox when it becomes affordable.

I bought the correct double block for my boat yesterday. As I had stated on the other thread; doing the Harken calculations on my rig were showing that the double/becket block on the traveler was undersized a bit. The SWL for that block was 2200 lbs; the mainsheet load in 35kts of wind calculates to 4260 lbs. This hardware was installed by the PO 3 years ago and spec'd by a well-known SF Bay Area rigger (doh!).

I purchased a new Lewmar 105mm fiddle/becket; the SWL of that block is over 7000 lbs. I was going to buy the 90mm; but I found a new 105mm unit on e-bay for about 1/3 of the retail.

Last edited by KeelHaulin; 10-16-2007 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 10-16-2007
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keelhaulin and SemiJ have done a good job of spec'ing out the parts/sizes etc. I don't think it hurts to go one size over if that's in the budget... things tend to run easier and you know you're covered load wise.

One comment I'd make re the original question posed - ratchet or not - I'd most definitely recommend a ratchet block somewhere on the mainsheet system as it really helps control the main in windy gybes. The mainsheet fiddle block/cleat is the best place for it. I have a ratchet block on one of the boom turning blocks - it does the same job but can be difficult to reach if the boom is out, and if the ratchet is left on it fights the fine tune tackle.

It's not the best setup but those were the bits I had on hand.
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Keelhaulin,

The 6-1 then micro sounds like a way to go, just need to figure out which part # and how to make it work. I can spec it via compuspec, but the picture does not correspond to what I have to work with, putting the fine tune deck mounted behind the 6-1 system. So I need to figure out if I can do a 6-1 that looks like the 4-1/micro. Otherwise, the 4-1 will work without too many issues overall.

Faster,

You know what sailing in the greater pugetsound/BC area is like, one minute blowing like a sonofgun, next you are in a mill pond! That happened to me last summer crossing the straigts to port townsend from bedwell harbor. Blowing in the low 20's, go into admirality inlet, winds goes to ZERO! I will probably do the ratchmatic in cam setup on the windward carr. That seems like the most logical, on the boom, even with my small boom, would be useless along with a PITA as you mention. I really do not think going to 70MM in reality will be worth it. about $300 vs 400, so not a major difference. I'd rather put that money into self tailing winches, or get rid of the 22yr old main and 140.........get my codes from 3345 to a 5555.......I really thing the ball bearing blocks will make enough of a difference, that staying with equal sized pulleys to what I have will not be a big deal. I'm not normally out in mid 20 knot breezes like the FWB race. BUT, I was out with a full main and gennaker for a bit in the mid 20 knot breezes, hit over 8 knots!grin Not as fast as neptunes carr at 23 knots! There is another guy with my boat racing out of Vancouver, that is in the top 5 or 10 a lot for the year, still has stock blocks like me, so they work!

marty
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Old 10-17-2007
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Marty-

This -might- work. You should verify with someone at Harken to see if it will work properly:

1556 Hexaratchet (or 1555 if you do the fine trim straight away)
2602 Double - Located directly above the traveler
2600 Single - Located at the aft-most mounting point on your boom.

40mm Blocks for the Fine Tune:
2655 Fiddle
2656 Fiddle/Becket/Cam

Reeve the lines so the double block is a reeved right angle and the single gives you some angle for the trim blocks - mounted to the bitter end and back to the 1555 terminal.

HTH...
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Old 10-17-2007
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Ok, so what is the difference tween the 1556/1555 and the 2630/2629? The 26xx being the lighter more expensive carbo version? Then still use the 2655/2656 40mm stuff for fine tune? Now that I look, the 15xx appears to be higher breaking strength too?

Marty
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