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  #11  
Old 10-30-2007
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Gee TB...Grumpy today aren't we?

I don't know about Chicken Little, but here is what I do know;

-In my lifetime, every case of a sailboat blowing up that I have personal knowledge of has been propane explosion on a boat with propane system and a diesel engine (with one possible exception where a boat was fueled through an abandoned fuel filler and the bilges were filled with gasoline).

- I have spent too many nervous nights on too many boats searching for a source of leaking propane to ever want propane aboard.

-Both of which are anecdotal and I don't see anecdotes as suitable proof of anything.

-In the Chicken little with a whole lot of experience with falling sky, when I decided to convert my boat from a propane system to catalyzed alcohol (Origo), I contacted my insurance company about the impact of the change. The insurance company reduced my insurance rates for installing a catalyzed alcohol stove. I questioned whether upgrading the propane system with sniffers and a sniffer actuated shut-off would being my rates down the same amount, and was told that as far as the insurance company was concerned, sniffers and sniffer actuated shut-offs are a good idea, but the hazard still remained the same.

-Propane/air mixtures are equally explosive as a gasoline air mixtures. Boats with gasoline engines are equipped with blowers and explosion proofed electrical systems that are spark shielded. Blowers are run before starting the engine on a gasoline powered boat. Most propane equipped boats have none of these safeguards.

As for slow, I have already mentioned in an earlier post that in a random test performed at a recent raft up, the Origo was faster than some, slower than other propane burners in heating a measured amount of liquid. I just have not found the Origo burners noticably slower.

Back to the original post, I like the idea of a diesel stove and water heater, but they are very pricy.

Jeff
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Old 10-30-2007
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RRgane,

As a follow-up to my previous post, it now seems the Taylor "cookers" fall under the Blakes-Lavak corporate umbrella. See them here at:

http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/prod02.htm
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Old 10-30-2007
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Jeff,

Perhaps I am a bit grumpy this morning; could be that the boat's getting hauled next week, or maybe it's due to those very few boaters who regard those who accept the use of propane on a boat as being irresponsible and foolish.

I have a distinct memory of kerosene fueled stoves as a child in my grandmother's kitchen. Pehaps I grew to dislike the acrid odor of burning kerosene, or the greasy residue that seemed to cling to everything. It's simply not for me. The weight, complications with fume extraction and expense are also distinct negatives to these appliances.

I never want to go back to using alcohol on a boat either - had that on two boats prior to this one. A huge pain to deal with preheating, flare-ups and long waiting times.

It was alluded that we make informed decisions based upon our life experiences, research, personal likes and dislikes. Your fears outweigh a decision to use LPG on your boat. My experiences have enabled an acceptance of this risk, based upon the intellegence of proper use and numerous associated benefits.
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Old 10-30-2007
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I used the kerosene camper stoves while camping an on some of the small boats I "camped" on. Keeping the burners cleaned so they would preheat was a pain. Hated the smell and oily mess of fueling them.. any small spill is near impossible to wipe up as the smell last months and when away from town... it is impossible to buy in many areas.

My first "cruiser" a C26 had the pressurized Alcohol stove... major pain to pre-heat and if the alcohol was more than a few months old it would turn into a water alcohol mixture on its own... even in a "well sealed" container but we all know that no such thing exist. Unpressurized units never seem to heat the water for coffee... while I don't mine coffee that has cooled off I MUST has the initial coffee to be HOT. And forget about boiling anything of size or even the simple task of steaming shrimp... it becomes difficult with alcohol systems. You end up eating cans of Vienna sausages... what ever there made of... Alcohol is just too slow and if you take the time to look at flame qualities you will find it is very cool and inefficient in heat transfer... several web sites had comparison when Alcohol systems were thought to be an alternative but in a recent search they no longer seem to be even a point of discussion. Good fuel is also difficult to locate and keep.

Unless you enjoy being a third world caveman and like the difficulties of these systems as a test of your seamanship or man/womanhood most "normal" people would not consider them as a first choice at cooking other than emergency or subsistence level cooking... never gourmet.

While it is obvious that a poorly maintained LP system can be dangerous.. it is by far the best system for real cooking on board a boat... with the exception of the BBQ grill attached to the rail. BBQ is my first choice for fun cooking but the LP system is for real everyday cooking with the least problems and by far the fastest times. Fuel is not always easy but in any community were boating, camping or a few trailers exist.. a source also exist and even the small tanks last some time... and most of us carry 2 or more.

Any Primary cooking system other than LP or CN appears to be unrealistic for a mid sized and up cruiser. IMHO

Of course I'm sure their exist someone who would rather rub two sticks together.
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Last edited by RealityCheck; 10-30-2007 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 10-30-2007
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For the record I am not saying that alcohol is the best setup. I agree that a properly setup and maintained propane system is best for on-board cooking, however it is not cheap! for the cooking I do my alcohol setup is efficient and safe.
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Old 10-30-2007
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woohoo flame war .. let me get my marshmallows!

seriously, thanks for every opinion.. i did not mean to call into judgment anyone's choice of galley fuel. granted, i was a bit flippant in my dismiss of both of both propane and alcohol.

first off, i lost a friend in a triton to a gasoline explosion. he had gone over to fill up at the fuel dock in pago pago, then went back to his anchorage and lit a cigarette. sloppy yes, and gasoline is not propane i understand. technology with sniffers and sensors have come a long way since then (1976). but, technology breaks down, sensors fail.. far fetched? absolutely .. but when kerosene goes bad, it is just bad kerosene. i am trying hard to make my boat randall(me)-proof. not that i am such an idiot, but i want as few other things to worry about as possible. also in a pinch i can always run diesel through a kerosene stove, so i have an emergency back up fuel.

i get that propane is clean and instant on, but i am at peace with kerosene and it's foibles.

thanks JohnRPollard for the lead on Taylors, i may have a lead on an old Shipmate, but if that doesn't pan i will probably go with one. i certainly like the whole concept of the Wallas, but as above, i do not like relying on technology and putting a circuit board right next to a pair of 8500btu burners makes me skiddish.
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Old 12-07-2012
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Re: kerosene stoves.. WHAT HAPPENED!

I was considering kerosene so I looked at this thread,
and it made me realize that really wood is the best way to go.
I love wood, have ever since I was little, and it's abundant, plentiful and cheap,
can also make pottery or at least earthenware in a wood fire, cups, bowls, spoons :-).

considering that so many of the wood stoves are so expensive, I might make my own out of ferrocement, or maybe try a rocket stove, though definitely an efficient design.

Also wood is safe, 0 explosion hazard (though may spit embers), can be doused with water.
it makes dry heat, so is great for heating in the winter.
it smells great, looks wonderful, renewable resource.

Also the ash has myrid uses, from making soap, to supplementing calcium and potassium.

Last edited by elspru; 12-07-2012 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 12-07-2012
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Re: kerosene stoves.. WHAT HAPPENED!

Curious that this thread topic came up. I was just tonite looking across the Web for kero stoves. I am/was considering it as an alternative to alcohol, mostly to maintain similarities in fuels aboard, ie: diesel for the engine and K-1 for the lighting and stove. K-1 in a pinch in the engine, too
I use propane here at home and have no fear of it, per se; but it does pose some hazards other fuels don't. I'm not familiar with the pressurized alky stoves; just the little brass Swedish surplus wick types. I know they work 'n all; but trying to cook a square meal on one is NOT my idea of culinary fun!
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Old 12-07-2012
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Re: kerosene stoves.. WHAT HAPPENED!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Gee TB...Grumpy today aren't we?

I don't know about Chicken Little, but here is what I do know;

-In my lifetime, every case of a sailboat blowing up that I have personal knowledge of has been propane explosion on a boat with propane system and a diesel engine (with one possible exception where a boat was fueled through an abandoned fuel filler and the bilges were filled with gasoline).

- I have spent too many nervous nights on too many boats searching for a source of leaking propane to ever want propane aboard.

-Both of which are anecdotal and I don't see anecdotes as suitable proof of anything.

-In the Chicken little with a whole lot of experience with falling sky, when I decided to convert my boat from a propane system to catalyzed alcohol (Origo), I contacted my insurance company about the impact of the change. The insurance company reduced my insurance rates for installing a catalyzed alcohol stove. I questioned whether upgrading the propane system with sniffers and a sniffer actuated shut-off would being my rates down the same amount, and was told that as far as the insurance company was concerned, sniffers and sniffer actuated shut-offs are a good idea, but the hazard still remained the same.

-Propane/air mixtures are equally explosive as a gasoline air mixtures. Boats with gasoline engines are equipped with blowers and explosion proofed electrical systems that are spark shielded. Blowers are run before starting the engine on a gasoline powered boat. Most propane equipped boats have none of these safeguards.

As for slow, I have already mentioned in an earlier post that in a random test performed at a recent raft up, the Origo was faster than some, slower than other propane burners in heating a measured amount of liquid. I just have not found the Origo burners noticably slower.

Back to the original post, I like the idea of a diesel stove and water heater, but they are very pricy.

Jeff
I have posted several times on SN about my 10+ years with the kero stove/oven on my boat. The only 'downside' is that it takes 3 minutes to pre-heat, a process which I actually enjoy since it makes me realize I am on my boat! It is not true that kerosene smells, at least not when properly pressurized. It does stink when wicked, like in an oil lamp, perhaps people get confused about that.

Kero is very caloric and the ONLY cooking fuel that is available world-wide (OK, I am not counting coal and wood). Cheap, too: 5 gallons of K-1 will set you back 20 bucks but will tide you over for many HUNDREDS of cooked meals.

But the most important is safety. Sure, a perfectly working LPG system is safe. And we all know that technical systems always work perfectly. If not, kaboom!

As Jeff points out, deadly LPG explosions DO happen, this is not a theoretical possibility. YOU make the decision whether you think the convenience of having the stove works just the same as the one at home is worth the potential cost.

It is your life and that of your family that is at stake.
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Old 12-07-2012
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Re: kerosene stoves.. WHAT HAPPENED!

I've been cooking meals on our unpressurized alcohol stove for five seasons and don't understand the mythology of long cooking times. My experience has shown it is just not an issue. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of times we have used our bbq grill over the past five seasons, but I use the alcohol stove at least twice a day when aboard. i only wish I had the space for a decent small oven.
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