[Mystery] Middle-aged diesel seeks same - SailNet Community
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post #1 of 26 Old 11-24-2007 Thread Starter
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[Mystery] Middle-aged diesel seeks same

I may have mentioned in passing my fat arsed steel cutter and plans to point it in a watery direction.

In aid of these plans, I'm taking my late 1980s Westerbeke W-52 out for inspection and potential rebuild. It's only got 1300 hours on it, but as I could put on 1,000 hrs./year for five years, it's reasonable to "refresh it" as much as possible.

Trouble is that the Internet was but a baby when this engine was popular, and there's a dearth of information on it. Luckily, I have a parts lists, a superseded parts list, and a very nice shop manual. I am having work done this winter at a general diesel (not marine) place that does trucks and train diesels. I estimate maybe 10 hours of work by a decent rebuilder are required.

Here's the rub: I have found that this Westerbeke is a Mazda diesel used in B2000 and B2200 pickups from the early '80s. I have also learned that Mazda built diesels for Perkins to Perkins specs in Japan. I believe my Westerbeke is essentially the Mazda S2 or perhaps R2 engine (134.8 cu. in is the same as 2200 cc displacement.) I also think this engine is the same block as the Perkins 4.135 (first pic), and therefore the Westerbeke W-52. (second pic). The W-52 spec sheet is the last picture.







So, my point is this: Westerbeke charges an arm, a leg and a testicle for parts. Might I not do better via Mazda or even Perkins, if I can prove that the Westerbeke is the marinized (aka add pumps and zincs) version of the Mazda S2 diesel for pickups, which is also the Perkins 4.135, of which I bet more were made than the Westerbeke...

EDIT: If I'm right that the Westie/Mazda/Perkins are the same block, then it was also used in early '80s Ford Rangers. The cylinder bore on the W-52 is 3.50" x 3.51"

Your advice or insights are valued.

Last edited by Valiente; 11-24-2007 at 12:39 AM.
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post #2 of 26 Old 11-24-2007
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Where is that thread that had the list of engines and their automotive counterparts....one moment please....

This is the list that Capnhand gave me for Universal. He seems to be the man with the answers you need.
Check the "we're getting hosed" thread for more info.

Edit:
Ah man! You were on that thread! And here I thought I was giving you a nugget. Sorry V.

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Last edited by bestfriend; 11-24-2007 at 12:39 AM.
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post #3 of 26 Old 11-24-2007 Thread Starter
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That thread kinda petered out. If I contact a Westerbeke distributor, he'll try to sell me a $500 gasket set and gold-plated bearings. If I can logically source non-marine parts, I'm not going to sneer at putting "pickup" parts in a marine diesel. I will rather be incented to buy more spares before they disappear from the historical record.

But thanks for the thought! I know quite a few guys here own Westerbekes and Perkins, and Mazda made blocks for more than one model they rebranded for marine use.
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Did you see this? Looks like you are headed in the right direction.

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post #5 of 26 Old 11-24-2007
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Val

if you can ascertain that the blocks are indeed the same, then I'd say that there would be no problem whatsoever using the non marine sources for engine parts, seals, etc.

With Pathfinder vs VW, any of the parts added/changed in the marinization of the Rabbit diesel are generally not available from VW anyway. But we rebuilt ours with all VW or jobber parts obtained through a local VW mechanic - at a fraction of the cost of a similar job on a Yanmar or Volvo. This is, I think, the essential advantage of avoiding those two specialty marine brands.

Pathfinder added a deeper oil pan, for instance, but the gasket is a standard VW part still. They also upgraded the starter to something more robust, but it's still a VW part, just from a different engine.

From your pictures the engines certainly look similar, getting the specs on internals is going to be the trick.
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post #6 of 26 Old 11-24-2007 Thread Starter
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Yes, BF...Wikipedia was my friend here. It's frequently wrong or incomplete, but in some cases the articles on the most arcane stuff (i.e. Mazda diesels from the '70s and '80s) trumps Google.

Faster, I have all the Westerbeke specs in the shop manual, which is excellent. If I can establish the blocks are the same, that's 90% of the effort. I don't object to buying Westerbeke stuff like the heat exchanger or wiring harnesses, but having rebuilt an Atomic 4, I know there are usually alternatives and that one basic engine design at a rated output is frequently rebadged in a different context.

If anyone knows of a Sherwood F-85 raw water pump that isn't $485, though, I'd love to hear about it. My plan is to take off much of the current parts like the fuel lift pump, the water pump, the starter and the heat exchanger (all which work but all of which are nearly 20 years old), and to tag 'em, bag 'em and put them in a nice dry spot as drop in spares. I had a spare coil, distributor, plugs, raw water pump and carb for my Atomic 4, and a couple of those items were very handy indeed as "drop ins" when on passage.
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post #7 of 26 Old 11-24-2007
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I love reading about folks outsmarting the pirates at westerbeke. And mazda makes some damn fine engines which means your ahead further; you could have ended up with something like a westerbeke 33 with the mitsubishi block. Some of the worst engines made.

But if the engine has only that many hours, I really think you are wasting your money with a rebuild; it's hardly broken in. Source the parts sure, keep some spares, even replace a few seals, rocker cover gasket and so forth, but I'll bet if you pull the head you won't find any wear.

This is what I found in my Leyland 1.3 Litre, aka westerbeke 30 when I replaced a leaky head gasket. It had somewhere around 2000 hrs:

Notice there is no visible cylinder wear and no ridge, and the crosshatching from the factory is clearly visible. This engine is a long way from needing a rebuild.

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post #8 of 26 Old 11-24-2007
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for just about everything pumps, try these guys...http://www.depcopump.com/
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post #9 of 26 Old 11-24-2007
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Valiente,

I don't have a Westerbeke, but this thread interests me nonetheless. I like the sleuthing, and I share Hoffa's pleasure in reading about someone circumventing the parts pirates.

One aspect of your plan that has me pondering:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente View Post
My plan is to take off much of the current parts like the fuel lift pump, the water pump, the starter and the heat exchanger (all which work but all of which are nearly 20 years old), and to tag 'em, bag 'em and put them in a nice dry spot as drop in spares. I had a spare coil, distributor, plugs, raw water pump and carb for my Atomic 4, and a couple of those items were very handy indeed as "drop ins" when on passage.
I wonder if this is the right approach? Might it not make more sense to carefully inspect (replace gaskets etc as necessary, perhaps re-build) and then re-install the functioning parts and keep the new ones as spares? I'm just trying to project into the future along the course of your voyage -- remote locations, availability of parts, difficulty of making repairs, etc. I think under those circumstances I would want to be certain of the quality of the component I was going to all the effort to replace and re-install.

Yes, by installing the new part now during the "re-build", you will probably reduce the likelihood of that part failing along the way. But if it does fail, you will be sticking a used part in to replace it, and then you'll feel the need to get another spare asap.

There is a similar thinking with emergency flares. Some say keep your old expired ones as back-ups in case you run out of new ones. Others say use your old expired ones first and save the new ones for back-ups. That way you know your back-ups will be good if the old ones let you down.

Just another perspective, and I'm not claiming it's the superior approach. If it were me and I could afford to do so, I would probably replace the most likely components to fail with new components during the rebuild, AND buy a second new set of spares (especially if you can find a less expensive source) or a rebuild kit. Good luck!
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post #10 of 26 Old 11-24-2007
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I remember someone warning me about wholesale usage of automotive parts on a marine engine. The problem is that some of them are different for a reason. The only thing I remember is more relevant for gas engines. The fuel pumps are different to avoid significant fuel spills in case of diaphram failure (the most common failure mode). Basic engine block stuff (gaskets etc.) should be okay, but check out other parts carefully.
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