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  #91  
Old 03-22-2008
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xort has a spectacular aura about xort has a spectacular aura about xort has a spectacular aura about
Peter
Sorry but it sounds like, to me, you are looking to drum up problems where there are none. You stated "And no, there is not, as far as I know, any large body of data sitting out there to base this on."

Is this group you're involved with the same group that wants to mandate life jackets for all aboard at all times like in the USVI?

Sometimes doing nothing is the right thing to do.
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  #92  
Old 03-22-2008
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Can't afford a genset, or sufficent solar panels to be worthwhile, but, I can afford my Honda EU2000. Is it the best choice for alternate power? No, but it's what I can afford.
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  #93  
Old 03-22-2008
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sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
I think some are confusing what Peter is rightfully pointing out as potential hazards, which if observed, may allow for safe generator operation with what he feelsshould be a proper notification to the boating public.

How many of you are familiar with protected ignition sources or things like flame screens or spark arrestors? Not the majority I'll bet. The ABYC has to establish the standards for what is inherently safe. Those standards don't lend themselves well to, "but if you do this" you're ok. I'd say that he is merely being prudent in wanting to investigate why there are no marine warnings on the owner's manual. It's presence would certainly cause many of us to ask some questions, which would hopefully lead to some answers such as found here. Seems fair enough.

For the record, I've purchased a Yamaha portable that I intend to use on my boat.
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  #94  
Old 03-23-2008
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For those of you who aren't aware of ABYC, they are the industry standards org for the US boat manufacturing industry. Most boats built in the US are built to ABYC standards.They are not a government organization and their standards are voluntary. But a caveat; if a manufacturer gets sued, ABYC is the standard they will be held to in court, because they are the "accepted industry standard" as the lawyers would put it. Your sailboat may be designed to a rule like IYRU, but stuff that goes into the boat is built to ABYC standards. Unless your boat is built in Europe, then it's the RCD, much of which was adopted directly from ABYC. Or if from Canada built to Transport Canada Standards which were adopted mostly from ABYC, and so on. Even Australia uses ABYC standards. ABYC has even been negotiating with Chinese boat builders to get them to meet the ABYC standards. Oh yeah, if you get your boat surveyed. The surveyor uses ABYC standards, as does your insurance company. Try American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) - Welcome. Most boat manufacturers, manufacturers of boat equipment, surveyors, marine repairers, designers and naval architects are membersof ABYC.

Actually those of us at the USCG office of Boating Safety were active members, simply because it is better if the industry regulates itself. It saves me and you (the tax payers) a lot of bucks (and a lot o fwork), and keeps the govt from making a lot of laws. But even many surveyors don't understand the difference between ABYC and USCG regulations and will tell you, the Coast Guard requires it, when that ain't necessarily so. On a sailboat the Coast Guard only regulates if the boat has an inboard gas engine, then the fuel electrical and ventilation rules apply. A diesel powered sailboat or one without an engine has only to meet the navigation light regulations, and a Hull Id number. If you put in a toilet (not a portable toilet) then it has to be a USCG certified device but most people just use a holding tank. So other than canoes and kayaks, sailboats are the least regulated boats made in the US. They are actually regulated far more in Europe. France probably regulates sailboats more than any other country.

Anyway, I agree with many of you that alot of the warning labels seen today (especially the one on paper coffee cups ) are just plain stupid. Here's a page with some of the best. Things People Said: Warning Labels

My fav "Do not use orally." -- On a toilet bowl cleaning brush
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  #95  
Old 03-23-2008
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply. But as a regular "Joe".... these standards are voluntary yet in terms of legaleeze - used in the court of law. I have issue with the ABYC because very few of the documentations are available to the general public - and to get ABYC specs and regs, one pays a hefty price to do so. Most of the actual laws that govern us are available in public form and accessible at either the library or online.

So here is the beef. ABYC passes something I think is silly - soldering not approved use crimps instead, yet there is no founding evidence on that period that either is better or worse. It is not like the general public has a say to weigh in on issues they state should be used (and for instance a electrical fire starts and part of the blaze destroys a soldered and heat shrinked connection...) lawyers, insurance come back and say - unapproved wiring, even though not cause of the fire, deny claim... I have an issue with this but because ABYC is the "authority" and there is no actual form of public protest as the public can't access the ABYC freely to begin with... almost like highway robbery to me...

And that is where I have issue with yet another "include warning".... because it will not stop there... and the only thing joe public gets is that its a ABYC requirement and not the reasons for nor exceptions when it can or can be used...
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  #96  
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sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Jody brings up a perfectly valid point. One perhaps that might justify someone starting a thread on it in the Construction and Design thread for a broader readership and exploration. I'd suggest a title of, "ABYC standards, the logic and meaning behind them". Or something that provokes a discussion of how individual standards were arrived upon.

Let me say first that I am not sure that his scenario that an insurance settlement would be denied because the boat's wiring did not meet ABYC code is valid. An ivestigation into the cause of a fire is generally focused on the cause of the fire. (!) If the fire was electrical it is generally not enough to say that the wiring did not meet code to assign causality but specifically what portion of the wiring failed, and why, resulting in the fire. It would be difficult to blame a fire on soldered joints if the actual cause was short circuiting within the battery. Or the turkey fryer tipped over in the cockpit for that matter.

A good measure of most codes consists of good old common sense. I will issue a caveat that there is always a tendency among certain regulators to assign one "right way" to do things. This is almost never the case in practise. It also tends to lead to an attitude that if things meet code they are inherently safe. We know from recent carbon monoxide deaths around boats that this is not true either and probably has never been true. And that's part of the reason we get to those ubiquitous stickers and notices. Would anyone be seriously surprised to purchase a brand new boat and find a sticker on it proclaiming, do not place in water without proper training?

The advantage of sailnet is that it presents a wide array of options in sailboat maintenance and repair. Some aren't worth a tinker's damn while others can only be classified in the "Oh wow" category or "why didn't I think of that" or more commonly, "so that's how they do that". It's still up to the beholder to determine what makes sense for them. We're not constrained as the ABYC is to come up with practises that fit all boats in all situations.

I'll also agree with Jody in that there is no source for the why's and wherefore's of the code and which parts are really important and which part's you might give less weight. That's probably actually good in that, if you're planning on doing things in a non-code manner you're probably more likely to research them more thoroughly before you proceed. There's probably nothing wrong with soldering your connections in 98% of the cases and you probably don't have to run your wiring in conduit like I did either. Neither are "code".

I used to dive with a guy who made his first dive using an old fire extiguisher for a tank. He soon graduated to a pilfered bottle from his grandfathers welding shop. He did it and he did it without injury. i'm not going to go out of my way to condemn it because I know that a resonably bright person can come up with countless similar ideas to achieve something. But Iwouldn't recommend it to a novice, especially one that I only know from the internet. And that is a bit of the conundrum we face on sailnet. There are many ways to make a long splice. In describing them to you, at what point do I become liable for either propagating false information or for giving you information you are not equipped to handle without risking injury?
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  #97  
Old 03-23-2008
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Local fire department says so. It becomes code. Don't conform to code...pay fine. Argue with elected officials...they refer to the fire department that proposed the rule. No change...

I have way too many people who are trying hard to protect me from the idiots I have to watch out for every day.

The original post was in November...I hope the guy made his decision my now.

I'm buying a Honda 2000..I'll use it safely, take all the precautions, and pray after making the world safe...I don't get killed by a sea-ray.
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  #98  
Old 03-23-2008
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Sailaway, I wouldn't be surprised to see that label. In Connecticut you must (it's state law) take a short course to operate a PWC. I suppose if and when we get enough people on the water that will get extended to other types of boats. About half the states now require some sort of boating education. It's grandfathered in many states for us old folks but I went and got the card anyway.

The ABYC requirement on connectors is misunderstood. They do not require you to solder or not solder. The standard says:

11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of
mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the
connection shall be so located or supported as to
minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder
changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor

I have found that interpreting the standards as some times the hardest part. When people would call us and ask if a regulation meant thus and so we use to say, "you're hired.Anyone who can read the regs and interpret them correctly should be working for the government!"

It's often the same way with all standards. At least in the US they are all written by committees. I'm sure you have all heard the old joke about an elephant being a mouse designed by a committee. Too much time is spent word smithing these things so the lawyers won't have field day with them.

Any way, you don't have to solder, or you can solder. If you solder then there must be some other means of supporting the wire in addition to the solder. This is so the hard spot where the solder is doesn't have all the stress concentrated on it.

Yes I agree the standards ain't cheap. My yearly membership and fee for online access takes a big chunk out of my retired pay. But online access is better than having them send a book or a CD because they online stuff is always up to date. But it isn't just ABYC, all the standards orgs charge. SAE, NFPA, ISO, NMEA, UL, (what an alphabet soup) the RCD and so on. But that's because they are non-profits, and the only income they have is membership fees, donations, and selling publications. Pluss the get grants from the government to do projects for the public. Only the government gives it away because if it's the law you have to publish it because the public has a right to know.

If you have a beef with a standard, then by all means write to them. American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) - Welcome I have seen the committees spend many hours considering input from people who are not members. When they say public comment they mean just that. There are a number of what are called "public members"; like myself who don't have some company or job to pay for travel and lodging to go to meetings. But ABYC is given a grant from the USCG every year to cover public member travel. The only catch, you have to be a member.

Your comment about one "right way" is certainly apt. That's why we (USCG) always tried to write performance standards, as opposed to technical standards. A technical standard tells you it must be done this way. A performance standard says, do it however, but it must perform a certain way. For instance in O/B monohul boats under 20 feet they must float level when swamped. No where in the regs does it say how to achieve this.

It's the same way with most standards. But there are some things you just have to say do it this way. A lot of this stuff has been around for years. Much of it started back in the 50's when people were dieing in boats at a rate of about 1300 a year, and there were a lot less boats then. It's down to about 600 a year now. I have a couple of news Alerts sent to my email every day on boating accidents. About 2 fatalities a day on average. Hardly any of those in sailboats though. Which is good news for those at sailnet. Here's my Blog where I post some of them. New Boat Builders Home Page - Boating Safety Blog And that's just in the US. A lot of these are senseless. CO Poisonings, boats colliding, fires. Actually fatalities from fires have dropped dramatically over the last 20 years. About 10-12 a year compared to 100 20 years ago. Now people just kill them selves by running their boats into things.

Anyway. That's depressing. I should never have sold my Thistle! I could be out sailing.
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  #99  
Old 05-30-2008
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As I live a board a wooden ship and live tied to a mooring, I need a power-supply. Mainly to power a variety of grinding tools and saws that use between 500 - 1500 watts , but also for heating water 700 watt. Then the need to charges the batteries to run PC and TV through a sinus inverter and all the rest for 12 Volt DC, like refrigerator, freshwater pump, bilge pump, saltwater pump, diesel-heater etc.


Just these days I have upgraded from a 2,5 KW gasoline generator to a 3,5 KW diesel-generator. Both air-cooled. The main reason being that I was very uncomfortable with storing a large amount of gasoline onboard. The amount was large because I am also lazy and don't want to row and walk to the gas-station each and every day to collect a small amount of gas. So I had four jerrycans with gasoline on the deck. With the diesel-generator I just pump into a can the amount of diesel that I need to fill the generator.

The other reason was that I needed a bigger output to able to run the water-heater, the battery-charger and the power-tools simultaneously and not sequencely as was necessary with the biggest grinding-tools with only 2,5 KW output. Power-tools uses a lot of current when starting.

And the new generator comes with an electric starter, what divine relief. No longer needing to fight with an unwilling recoil starter is major improvement on my life quality


(off topic, I must admit that I use an online device for spelling control, but it inserts hyphens all over my text, do you always use hyphens in all these words in English?)
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Old 05-30-2008
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