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Portable Generator vs Genset

25K views 109 replies 40 participants last post by  RXBOT 
#1 ·
Looking at purchasing either 2 Honda EU1000 or 1 Honda EU 2000. We have a 46'sailboat with typical loads but no genset and dont want to run engine everytime to charge house bank (6-6volt golf cart batteries). Bids on Panda (recommended by dealer) seems a crazy price vs $1.000 to $1,300. We plan to do typical BVI/Bahama cruising and dont have aircondition. Thoughts?
 
#3 ·
Don't buy a Panda. They are over-engineered and break down constantly. Spent some time with one of their biggest dealers. They told me they love selling the generators because they are lifetime revenue streams for the dealer.
On genset vs. Conventional generator, others on this list can fill you in better than I. But some air conditioning units draw too much power on startup and won't start with the 1 or 2 kW portables. The 3 kW honda is $1995-getting close to the price of a genset
 
#4 ·
Many cruisers successfully use portable Honda generators, but you have to be VERY careful (gasoline and, especially, carbon monoxide fumes).

For your boat, don't bother with the 1000; you need the 2000. It will run up to a 75A charger, and that's what you need at a minimum for your 6 golf-carts.

Obviously, the diesel genset is a better choice, but it's much more costly. Panda generators are cute, but they've suffered from a LOT of problems. They have recently improved their service and support, but I'd stay away from them.

Look at the NextGen or other small Kubota-based generators.

Bill
 
#64 · (Edited)
Many cruisers successfully use portable Honda generators, but you have to be VERY careful (gasoline and, especially, carbon monoxide fumes).

For your boat, don't bother with the 1000; you need the 2000. It will run up to a 75A charger, and that's what you need at a minimum for your 6 golf-carts.

Obviously, the diesel genset is a better choice, but it's much more costly. Panda generators are cute, but they've suffered from a LOT of problems. They have recently improved their service and support, but I'd stay away from them.

Look at the NextGen or other small Kubota-based generators.

Bill
Also note that the Honda 2000 EU generators can be rigged in parallel...providing expansion (the 1000 series can not)... For those wondering how much they run - typically $600 from most suppliers...The parallel kit cables run about $120... The fuel capacity is about 2 gallons but due to the variable load characteristics that 2 gallons can run the gen for 12 hours easily ... They are however, not handy for using while sailing as they shut down when tilted at about 15 degrees... They are also incredibly quiet (42 decibels) and do suffer a bit of abuse - I have left mine outside for 6 months at a time in the weather - starts up every time...usually if you have a problem it is as simple as just replacing the sparkplug...

just additional thoughts...
 
#5 ·
What has air conditioning have to do with it? Do you WANT air conditioning? If so, the Hondas won't cut it. You'll need a 4 KW genset (and I hear a lot of knocks against Panda...but as I'll never buy one, caveat emptor.)

If you don't want airconditioning, then "typical loads" are best met via solar/wind charging, with the Honda EU2000 as a backup, or as a means to run occasional heavy loads (ShopVac, drill, big fans, Koolatron, emergency pumps) without imposing on the inverter.

Because you'll have an inverter, right?

The Honda EU2000 is a beautiful thing, and it allows small boat owners to have some luxuries by providing via charging of the house batteries or directly 8-10 amps of cheap, dependable AC. But on a larger boat it is at best a supplemental thing to solar/wind/alternator. It's part of a bigger puzzle that dare I say takes a holistic approach to energy generation, and could see little use (until the boat shorts out and you need it to call for help on the radio, or to run a spotlight on your sails), or it could be used a fair bit, if you want to run appliances or tools with it.

Imagine being on the hook and power washing your deck. A Honda EU2000 can do that. So can an inverter, but not nearly as efficiently. Eight minutes of running a 700 watt microwave in the galley, on the other hand, is more or less an inverter task, as is energizing the boat's AC plugs so you can charge up hand tools, VHFs, the kids' DVD player, the laptop and what have you.

If you go to remote places on calm days, hauling a Honda might make a lot of sense...imagine cold food on the beach of some deserted cay, or maybe a line of Christmas lights to illuminate a seaside tryst...putt, putt, putt....

There's several recent threads that discuss the role of portable generators. As primary sources, they are strictly small potatoes. But as backups to the backups, or as portable ways to do stuff that would kill your house banks in short order, they are great value, especially on a bigger boat that has the room to store them and the deck on which to lash them.
 
#6 ·
i have been thinking of a cheap way to get some air conditioning on my boat at the mooring also. i am not sure of loads and how much the generator can take but was considering one the the 2000wt generators from honda and one of the 5000 btu portable a/c units found at walmart or similar stores. they vent out through a hose which you can stick out a hatch. cost i have seen 300-400 dollars. plus you have to buy the honda generator. some places list the info on how much energy they use but i am not sure how that equasion goes.
i assume the startup and running wattage would have to be less than 2000 watts. (if using a 2000watt generator)
 
#7 ·
One thing you have to realize is that the power rating of generators is for RESISTIVE loads. If you are using inductive loads, like motors, the generator rating needs to be about twice the load. For instance, a 2000 W generator can probably run 20x100 Watt light bulbs... but a 1200 W microwave oven would probably fail to operate.
 
#8 ·
The power factor thing can be a real problem when trying to charge batteries through a normal charger...ie, using the generator's 120VAC into the charger's AC input. The charger presents a very high inductive load to the generator which, as mentioned above, would require a disproportionitly larger generator. But the solution to that, although counter-intuitive, is to add a couple of 25w or so light bulbs in parallel with the charger....the change in power factor more than offsets the effect of the extra load. Alternatively, a better solution would be to add an AC capacitor rather than the bulbs...either a 'motor start' or 'motor run' variety purchased at an appliance store....Sears, for instance.
Howard Keiper
Sea Quest
Berkeley
 
#10 ·
Folks are probably tired of hearing me say this, but I'm going to repeat myself nonetheless:

The U.S. Coast Guard and ABYC recommend strongly against using portable gasoline generators aboard recreational vessels. Carbon monoxide poisoning is the greatest threat, as is risk of fire.

Please don't anchor ANYWHERE near other boats if you plan to use one of these on deck. Nothing ruins a peaceful anchorage quite like an air-cooled portable genset.
 
#14 ·
Folks are probably tired of hearing me say this, but I'm going to repeat myself nonetheless:

The U.S. Coast Guard and ABYC recommend strongly against using portable gasoline generators aboard recreational vessels. Carbon monoxide poisoning is the greatest threat, as is risk of fire.

Please don't anchor ANYWHERE near other boats if you plan to use one of these on deck. Nothing ruins a peaceful anchorage quite like an air-cooled portable genset.
I could not have said it any better than John.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I always wonder how the danger(s) posed by gas gensets such as the Honda compare with that of propane which is almost ubiquitous to cruising sailboats. Regardless of one's use of a gas genset, gasoline is typically already aboard most boats for use in the outboard which leads me to believe the gasoline hazard posed specifically by gensets is moot. Certainly the availability and use of propane sniffers is comparable to that of CO detectors so availability of warning devices is also a moot issue.
Intuitively, I would think that propane causes far more accidents than gasoline and as both are commonly found aboard (gas for outboards and propane for cooking).
Do the statisitcs bear out the warnings against the use of gas gensets?

Paranthetically,I was parked immediately behind a boat using a Honda sitting on his transom last summer in Cuttyhunk and tried paying attention to it's use as I was considering buying one at the time. Not having heard it running all day , I vertured over by dinghy that night to ask only to hear it was in fact running - convinced me about it's quiet operation.
 
#12 ·
Propane accidents are rare - especially when you consider how many boats are so-equipped. Carbon monoxide poisoning occurs frequently. There have been so many cases of carbn monoxide poisoning, including many deaths, that the Coast Guard in recent years has stepped-up it's campaign of warning boaters about the risk. Carbon monoxide can "pool" in unpredictable locations -- so fitting your boat with a CO detector(s) may or may not help you.

The big difference between the risks of propane and CO from gasoline combustion is that the propane appliance, when functioning properly, is not a risk. The gasoline appliance, when functioning properly, is emmiting a poisonous gas.
 
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#13 ·
John—

That's kind of a given, and every boat that runs a genset should have a CO detector aboard.
 
#19 ·
All good points of view but for those of us who also have a gas genset sitting in the garage or shed, it's not a big deal to ensure it is stored and run safely since we're used to it. From what I've observed, the objectional noise from this particular genset sounds (pun intended) like a perceived rather than real concern.
 
#20 ·
BTW, diesel gensets are generally noisier than gas gensets of the same size. The two-stroke gas gensets are pretty noisy, but the four-stroke Hondas are pretty quiet.
 
#21 · (Edited)
The honda EU 2000i runs my mermaid 16500 btu air conditioner just fine - but not the hot water, battery charger etc all at once. The 2000 puts out a sustained 13amps, including the water pumps - which is all the installed AC on a Gemini needs. Not every boat needs 4kw to be cool.
Some folks have a home depot window mounted cheap unit - they work fine with the 2000i as well.
Gasoline storage aside (anyone got a diesel outboard for the dinghy? Yeah I thot not - and who cruises without at least a 5hp for the dinghy? )
I'd get a 1000 and a 2000 - run the 1000 when that's all you need, use the 2000 when the load picks up, that way you have redunancy and load capacity. If you are doing the southern lats with ladies, forget the 'don't need a airconditioner' - get a portable hatch mounted one. You'll sleep better on windless nights and suck the humidity out of the cabin.
Oh - one more kicker, the Honda's are cheaper than a 2000w inverter and don't suck your battery dry or keep you up at night worrying about power consumption while the wife blow drys her hair.
 
#22 ·
I will just add in my experience here.

I used a gas genset once (well, several times, acutally). Never again. It rattled the boat and stank and carrying the gas was a pain in the butt.

I have had two diesel gen's since then: a panda and a Mastervolt. I prefer the MV. It is pretty idiot proof. I will say that I never had the issues with my Panda that others have shared. It ran fine and only needed oil changes. The same is true with the MV.

With a nice water muffeler, the gens are very quiet and only give a nice, soft hum. HOWEVER, they are VERY expensive. 15k seems about right, installed. You can cut that cost by doing a bunch of it yourself, but it is a project.

If you are not going to put in air conditioning, I do not see the point of a generator. With a nice battery bank and a good inverter, you can run everything on your boat. I am not trying to start another solar thread, but I have had a solar arch built, with 4 Kyocera panels, and a Outback MX-60 for: 3700+2400+600. That is about 7k, and I am TOTALLY off the grid. I can put out over 200ah/day. You can cut that cost considerably by jerry-rigging you panels on top of your bimini or some other creative invention... but I think the money may be better spent on the arch since it can serve many other purposes. It is cheap, quiet, free energy that does not require any maintenance. Now, compared to a gas generator, that may seem expensive and it is. I appreciate all those that can deal with the rattle and frustration of those noisy little Honda dudes. I am not one of them.

Just my opinions, so take them as such. I do not mean to put down those that get the gas generators, I am just giving my experience and opinions.

- CD
 
#26 ·
To add to the Panda knocking - I have one aboard my boat and apart from oil changes and impeller changes it works well. Press the on-off and the start button to start it, and the off button to stop it. It runs quietly and produces power enough to charge batteries, heat water, run 2 AC units and the A/C plugs (although both AC units need to be started separately).
 
#28 ·
K1VSK,

I am not challenging your integrity, nor do I doubt that you have posted support for your position somewhere here on Sailnet. However, I am not going to expend my time searching the internet for evidence supporting an assertion I believe to be incorrect. I feel the onus to prove rests with the proponent of an assertion that is contrary to established understandings and recommendations.

If you have authoritative, scientific evidence to support your position, I would honestly like to read it. And if it is convincing, I also think someone should contact the US Coast Guard and ABYC to apprise them of their mistake. At this time, both of these organizations continue to warn against the use of portable gas generators aboard recreational vessels due to the risk of CO poisoning. Both also state in their guidance regarding CO that diesel engines pose significantly less threat. The relevant portions of the ABYC document states:

"Portable Generator Sets - Do not use this equipment on boats. Gasoline powered portable generator sets produce CO. These sets discharge their exhaust products in locations which can lead to an increase in the accumulation of carbon monoxide in the occupied space."

(ABYC TH-22, Educational Information About Carbon Monoxide, July 2002, at 7); and:

"What Makes Carbon Monoxide?

"Carbon monoxide is produced anytime a material containing carbon burns, such as gasoline, natural gas, oil, propane, coal, or wood. Common sources of CO are internal combustion engines and open flame appliances such as cooking ranges, central heating plants, space heaters, water heaters, fireplaces, and charcoal grills.

"The carbon monoxide component of diesel exhaust is extremely low relative to the carbon monoxide level found in gasoline engine exhaust."

(ABYC TH-22, Educational Information About Carbon Monoxide, July 2002, at 1-2, emphasis added.)

The US Coast Guard adopts this ABYC guidance and incorporates it by reference in its safety bulletin on CO. (US Coast Guard Boating Safety Circular 74 -- Carbon Monoxide, The Invisible Killer (June 1992), Citing and Incorporating ABYC Technical Information Report T-22 (Educational Information About Carbon Monoxide), January 1992. [citing an earlier versin of the ABYC adivisory above]).

You and I have had this debate before, and I think we agreed to disagree. Which is fine. I also acknowledge that many cruisers are using portable gas gensets. I just don't want an inexperienced reader of this thread to draw the wrong conclusions for lack of sufficient information.
 
#31 ·
You and I have had this debate before, and I think we agreed to disagree. Which is fine. I also acknowledge that many cruisers are using portable gas gensets. I just don't want an inexperienced reader of this thread to draw the wrong conclusions for lack of sufficient information.
I believe that with a modicum of caution (only use on deck, well lashed, in places where the wind will blow the exhaust off the boat).

In addition, if used on the foredeck, make sure all hatches and dorades are closed off if being used.

Make sure all CO detectors are in working order.

Never run unattended or unsecured.

Basically, think of them like gas mowers on your deck, and think of the precautions you would take in such a circumstance.;)
 
#30 · (Edited)
I'll throw my 2-cents in here since I can speak from experience. As I live along the Gulf Coast, an air-conditioner is a must. This past season I had a choice of spending $8,000 - $10,000 for a 5KW professionally installed diesel genset, or spending $1000 for a gasoline-powered, air-cooled, self-installed unit. After doing a lot of research, I concluded that a diesel genset is ideal. The only drawback is cost... but it's a MAJOR drawback. I could not see forking over so much money for a diesel "marine" generator when an adequate alternative exists. Using a gasoline-powered, portable generator in a marine environment presents a large set of obstacles, but I was convinced that these obstacles could be overcome (what with mother necessity and all that).

The challenges to overcome consist chiefly of the following:

1.) Carbon Monoxide risk
2.) Air-Cooled engine
3.) Gasoline Fumes
4.) Small capacity tank
5.) Exhaust Fumes
6.) Non-marinized components
7.) Inconvenient (unit has to be lugged onto the deck for each use)
8.) Noise
9.) Must handle starting loads of a 13000 BTU air conditioner.

I decided to go with a portable gas-powered generator and overcome these obstacles. I purchased a Yamaha EF2400IS. This is a true sine wave generator of very good quality.

Noise, Inconvenience

To overcome these two, I permanently installed the unit within the rear lazerettes. The unit is bolted down and the lazerette is sound insulated. The unit comes with thick rubber feet. It was very quite to begin with, but now it's virtually silent.

Air-Cooled engine, Exhaust Fumes

This was a bit of a challenge. I basically designed and constructed a wet exhaust and adapted it to the unit. Sea water is pumped through a seacock and strainer and sprayed into a copper-constructed mixing chamber. Exhaust gases are also led from the unit into the chamber using a flexible, galvanized aluminum exhaust hose wrapped with fiberglass mesh. Here, the sea water and exhaust gases mix. Dirty, warm water falls via gravity to the bottom of the chamber and out a through-hull, and heat and fumes are drawn off the top of the chamber using a high-volume blower and exiting through the stern.

Gasoline Fumes

My "wet exhaust" can be operated independently of the generator unit. I switch it on for a few minutes before powering it up and the blower removes any fumes. The blower and the sea-water pump are both sealed, ignition-protected devices.

Non-Marinized Components

This model Yamaha has an entirely aluminum frame. It seems to be suited to stand up against the elements. Since it's installed below deck (as is my old Perkins 4.108) I would expect it to hold up at least as well as the Perkins in a marine environment.

Small Capacity Tank

You can purchase an adapter for this unit that allows you to safely tap off of a larger tank.

Carbon Monoxide Risk

The unit is installed outside of the cabin air space. Nevertheless, I have TWO carbon monoxide alarms in the cabin.

Running a 130000 BTU Air Conditioner.

I have a Flagship Marine 13,000 BTU air conditioner with a rotary compressor. This generator EASILY starts it and runs at about 1/2 of it's rated load to power it continuously.

I have ocean tested this setup countless times this past season trying to find a problem with it. Rough seas, HOT weather, heeled over, etc, etc. It refuses to fail. As a bonus, I can remove the unit in 15 minutes using a wrench and a screwdriver if I ever needed it ashore. One downside is it probably wouldn't pass inspection for insurance purposes. Total Cost? $1500 and a few weekends of work.
 
#32 ·
just a matter of time until the C.G. recommends that outboards not be used on fishing boats because someone got sick while drinking beer and trolling for jellyfish because of the station-wagon effect of all that CO being backwinded under the canvas cover.
 
#33 ·
Valiente,

I agree with both you and K1VSK that some folks have the experience, foresight, and presence of mind to use these carefully and without incident. Personally, I wouldn't trust myself -- but I'm a bit of a nimrod. Recognizing this shortcoming in myself, I default to the recommendation of experts. I could not live with the consequences if a careless or even unrecognized oversight on my part jeopardized the health or life of a family member -- particularly after being forewarned.

If folks choose to run their AC off these while sleeping sealed up below decks, that is a risk they choose to take. But if you are rafted with other boats that don't have AC, remember that their hatches and ports are likely to be open and the CO could pose a threat to them on a still night or if they end-up downwind of the exhaust.
 
#39 ·
If folks choose to run their AC off these while sleeping sealed up below decks, that is a risk they choose to take. But if you are rafted with other boats that don't have AC, remember that their hatches and ports are likely to be open and the CO could pose a threat o them on a still night or if they end-up downwind of the exhaust.
I understand and share your concern: we are proposing ocean cruising with a child. But we also don't plan to use the gas generator to run A/C, and certainly not to leave the thing running while we sleep, any more than I would leave a car running in a garage while I dreamt.
 
#34 ·
If I were going to use a genset... I'd set it up on the leeward ama deck. That would minimize any risk of fumes—either gasoline or CO—collecting in any real quantity.. of course, the guys with only half or third of a boat don't have this option. :D
 
#35 ·
If you have a strong wind, you can still get gassed. I wonder how many people have set the generator up on their transom?? Sounds right, huh? Boat is always pointing into the wind. But if you have a ddger, can't that create a vacuum and pull the CO back down below??

I know when we are motoring into a strong wind and the dodger is up, we get a lot of dieself fumes into the cockpit. Seems very likely that a generator would do the same thing on the transom or in the cockpit.

People use gas generators all the time. If you go into a LA anchorage, many of the boats there have gas generators. I think a diesel is better - for the many reasons I have listed above. However, it has a considerably higher cost. But if that is all you have budgeted/can afford, you will make do.

- CD
 
#36 ·
CD-

If the genset was out on the ama... getting gassed is very unlikely, since it is considerably lower than the rest of the boat and about 7' out to the side of any possible openings. :D
 
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