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  #1  
Old 01-05-2008
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Vinylester Resin - Barrier Coat

Hello,

I've just purchased a boat. Here are the vitals...

1987 Sabre 34
She will be kept on the Chesapeake
She may be hauled during winter months but most likely not.
Used mainly for weekend crusing around the bay
The Barrier coats (6) will be applied by my father and I.
The bottom is currently being peeled / stripped.

After researching the topic.

(some info here)
http://www.zahnisers.com/blisters_hydrolysis.htm

I've decided to pursue a Vinylester Barrier Coat. (Feel free to talk me out of it if you think I've made a bad choice)

Questions:
1) Where have others purhased the materials?
2) What fairing compound would you recommend for minor keel / dents dings etc.?
3) How many gallons do you think I'll need to purchase if I'd like to apply 6 coats?
4) Temperature concerns? The boat is currently in NC. How low can the temperature be? Or do lower temperatures simply contribute to longer cure/dry times?

Thanks for any information.

Craig
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Old 01-05-2008
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Hi Craig,

I think most DIY folks use epoxy for barrier coats. Interlux is a good resource if you go that route. I've done a fair bit of work with epoxy and it is not at all difficult to work with. However, ambient temps are important -- unless we got some anomalous weather, you wouldn't be able to apply an epoxy barrier coat out of doors during the winter in the Chesapeake region. NC is a bit warmer, but...

That is not to say anything against vinylester. I have no first hand experience working with it, so I can only say that our 1990 boat has a vinylester lay-up and it remains blister free and quite fair. Also, the folks at Zahniser's are very knowledgeable (Jim Sharkey in particular), so their advice would be a good resource for approaching this job.

Good luck to you, and congrats on your new boat!
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Old 01-05-2008
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I will second what John is saying about epoxy. I used Mas flag epoxy. I thicken one coat with silica and then put on an additional 3 coats of the flag epoxy. When I was done it looked like a sheet of glass.
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i would also recommend using an epoxy-based barrier coat. MAS is probably a better choice than West since it doesn't have the Amine blush issues. It will probably bond and stick to the underlying fiberglass better, since its secondary bonding characteristics are much better.

If you choose to go with a pre-prepared barrier coat, like Interprotect 2000e, that would be another way to do it, and the way I did my boat. I think the Interprotect would be easier than regular epoxy and cheaper as well. One major advantage of using IP 2000E is that you can get it in two colors and that makes applying it much simpler, especially if you have to use boat stands while applying it.

From another post I wrote on barrier coating:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Alternating the colors helps a lot with determining where you've painted, but it is also very useful for helping you coat the areas around the boat stands. For instance:

The first layer is gray, since the gelcoat is white, and you can paint right up to the boat stand pads. Then you paint a layer of white, and leave about a two-inch margin of gray paint around the pads... then paint a layer a gray and leave a four-inch margin around the pads or about two-inches of white and two inches of gray showing...and then finish with a layer of white—with a six-inch margin around the pads—with two inches of gray, two inches of white and two inches of gray.

Then when you move the boat stands, you can fill in the pads and layer the paint accordingly... adding gray to cover the white square left by the pad.. then white to cover the gray square, and so on.

Also, by alternating colors, you can see if someone has sanded through the barrier coat when you're prepping the boat for re-painting. If there's an area that is gray or grayish, they've sanded through at least the outermost layer of barrier coat. If you had all white, you wouldn't be able to tell if they had sanded down through the barrier coat as easily—if you had all gray, you could tell they sanded through the barrier coat...but not if they've sanded into it...

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.
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Old 01-05-2008
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Has anyone used this stuff?

http://www.fiberglasswarehouse.com/vinylester_resin.asp

craig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
i would also recommend using an epoxy-based barrier coat. MAS is probably a better choice than West since it doesn't have the Amine blush issues. It will probably bond and stick to the underlying fiberglass better, since its secondary bonding characteristics are much better.

If you choose to go with a pre-prepared barrier coat, like Interprotect 2000e, that would be another way to do it, and the way I did my boat. I think the Interprotect would be easier than regular epoxy and cheaper as well. One major advantage of using IP 2000E is that you can get it in two colors and that makes applying it much simpler, especially if you have to use boat stands while applying it.

From another post I wrote on barrier coating:

Thanks for the info! I like the idea of the 2 different colors. Still digging here...
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Craig, outside of price, why are you stuck on vinylester resins, when everyone is telling you to use epoxy ?
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Totally not stuck on Vinylester. Most people have recommended Epoxy, there is alot of information out there. I had all but decided for Epoxy until I read this from the guys at Zahniser'S...

(see link in previous post)


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

THE BARRIER COAT:

Following removal of hydrolyzed material, drying and replacement of glass as necessary, a barrier coat is applied. Until 1988, epoxies were generally used for this because of their high physical strength and waterproof qualities. In practical use, however, epoxies were less than ideal. Their application is difficult, requiring exact measuring and mixing habits, warm temperatures and dry atmosphere to achieve claimed physical properties. In the field, it has been noted that epoxies are only marginally tolerant of polyester substrates and seem to reject acidic laminates over time. The results are often blistered barrier coats and reduced protection and durability.

Vinylester resins have increasingly become the standard barrier coat used for blister repair, in the mid-Atlantic region at least. Designed for high corrosion resistance and high physical strength, they combine the good water proof lab specs of epoxy with the ease of application of a polyester resin. The theoretical "waterproofness" for equal skin thickness is marginally less than epoxy but because of it's flexibility and lower cost, vinylester resin can be applied in thicker skins, greatly increasing waterproofness. Thickness is an important factor in a barrier coat. Vinylester is much more compatible with the polyester than epoxies. The bonding strength of vinylesters to the original polyester is better than either polyesters or epoxies. We have used vinylester for barrier coasts exclusively now for over seven years.

As a barrier coat, we apply six rolled coats to arrive at a thickness of .030". This is two - three times the thickness of most epoxy systems. On top of the barrier coat, a vinylester sanding primer is applied and largely sanded off to smooth the bottom. By using the gelkote and laminate removing tool initially and careful filling and sanding, the bottom fairness is quite good and meets most owner's requirements. If race quality finish is required, this is accomplished by many hours of hand fairing.

Once fair, two coats of antifouling completes the repair. The boat is cleaned and launched.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So while I'm leaning towards Vinylester the door's still open! Just trying to gather information really. My boat does have one blister. Although the marine inspector seems to think that it came from damage not a hull problem.

craig
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Vinylester is not as resistant to moisture penetration as epoxy due to the styrene leaving holes in the matrix as it evaporates out during the catalyzation process. This is why you have to go with a much thicker coat of vinylester to get the same level of protection. BTW, you do realize that the thicker the layer of the osmosis barrier coating, the heavier it will be...

BTW, the site you're looking at says this about epoxy resins:

Quote:
Very high physical properties and corrosion resistance. The highest in water proof characteristics
And their website is not talking about a normal barrier coat job, like what you would be doing, but a osmosis blister repair job with barrier coat... which is a totally different thing. They're talking repair, and from what I see you're talking about a prophylactic barrier coat job—to prevent requiring such a repair in the future. Because of this, what they're saying doesn't really apply to what you're doing...Unless your boat has an existing blister problem, I don't really see that what Zanheiser's is saying applies.

As for your boat being peeled and stripped, why are you doing that... it would probably be cheaper and better to have the bottom sodablasted down to the gelcoat and then barrier coated. Sodablasting is also probably a lot less expensive. If you're using a gelcoat peeling machine, you're actually damaging the first defense your boat has against osmosis damage, and making a lot more work for yourself.
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Old 01-05-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Vinylester is not as resistant to moisture penetration as epoxy due to the styrene leaving holes in the matrix as it evaporates out during the catalyzation process. This is why you have to go with a much thicker coat of vinylester to get the same level of protection. BTW, you do realize that the thicker the layer of the osmosis barrier coating, the heavier it will be...


And their website is not talking about a normal barrier coat job, like what you would be doing, but a osmosis blister repair job with barrier coat... which is a totally different thing. They're talking repair, and from what I see you're talking about a prophylactic barrier coat job—to prevent requiring such a repair in the future. Because of this, what they're saying doesn't really apply to what you're doing...

Yeah... That's kinda what I'm thinking now too. Looks like these guys are talking about re-doing a badly blistered boat. Re-laminating etc. etc.

Thanks again... I appreciate the experience and insight...

craig
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