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Old 01-09-2008
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seeking modification / refurb advice

Hi Folks, (Sorry for the long post)

I have most of the deck hardware, portlights, etc, off of my 1978 Seafarer 30, and will likely be repainting the deck, cabintop, cockpit, etc in the spring, before rebedding everything. A few modifications I am considering are:

- Removing cabintop cleats, moving cabintop winches, one on each side, back about a foot, to where the cleats are now. And installing rope clutches (spinlock type) in front of the winches, where the winches are mounted currently. Since I will be painting the cabintop anyway, I can use epoxy to buildup / round out these mounting bases, and have a good finished look. Main reason for doing this is the dodger is always in the way of the winches / handles turning, in the current forward location. As well, one winch can then handle multiple lines / halyards, as it doesn't need to be cleated off.

- Replacing the cheap white portlights with oversized lexan (no frame on the outside), and using frames as trim on the inside. The lexan would be through-bolted.
I would like to see any pictures, if anyone has done this, or hear comments!

- I pulled off part of the rubber rub rail / toe rail, and removed several screws in the hull to deck joint. I see that the old joint caulking is very brittle, so I will likely remove all of the rubber rail, and screws. Then I will pry apart the joint, a bit at a time, and recaulk using 4200, or something similar.
1st Question - Is this necessary, as I see that the hull to deck joint is glassed / tabbed together on the inside of the cabin.
- 2nd question - If I recaulk the joint, should I consider drilling out the scew holes, and through bolting the joint instead - or would this be overkill. To me it looks like a simple outside flange joint, but Seafarer says it is a girder type joint - If any Seafarer owner can do a little drawing of this joint, I would appreciate it!

- Can't afford to replace my Lewmar 40 sheet winches, with self-tailing models. But, I would like to get rid of the cleats, as people could then sit comfortably, on the teak rails, next to the winches. Has anyone replaced cleats with cam cleats, or something similar? If so, where / what angle did you mount them on?

Thanks in advance for any help!!
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Old 01-09-2008
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I would recommend you get Lewmar line clutches, rather than Spinlock line clutches. From what I've personally seen, and from the PS reports I've read, the Lewmar clutches do less damage to the lines and are far more reliable and easy to release. The spinlock line clutches can often jam and require you to tension the line before they will release.

Going with the Lexan ports through-bolted is an excellent idea. Drill the holes in the lexan a bit oversized though, since you'll want the ports to be able to expand and contract a bit. There was an excellent article in Good Old Boat magazine about doing exactly that about two years ago IIRC.

If the hull deck joint is not leaking, then it might make more sense to leave it alone, especially since it is glassed over on the interior of the boat. Drilling out the screws and properly through bolting them is probably a worthwhile thing though.

I would mount the cam cleats ahead of the winches along the line of the sheets. This way, you can pull the sheet down, into the cam cleat, as you're loading the wraps on the winch, and when you blow the sheet, by lifting the wraps off of the winch, you can yank it from the cam cleat as well.

Don't forget to properly fill all the unused holes, and to install backing plates under the hardware you're installing. Also, don't forget to pot the holes you make for all the hardware.
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Old 01-09-2008
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SD - thanks for the detailed advice! Especially on placing the cam cleat ahead of the winch. I was completely off, thinking that I would cleat the line / sheet off, on the line exiting the winch, heading inboard / aft - after having tightened it. I assume that you mean I can cleat it 1st, as it enters the winch, while wrapping it, and then proceed to tighten the sheet, while it is pulled through the cleat the whole time. Is this correct?
Actually, on my sheet winches, the sheet goes to an aft block 1st, then enters the winch from the aft / outside! I suppose I could place the line between the block and the winch to get the same effect as you suggested.

I am not sure if my deck to hull joint leaks or not, as I have not had the rail in the water for extended periods (Girlfriend doesn't like heeling too much), but thought it would be a good time to seal it. I will be taking off the rubber toerail anyway, as I will be painting the deck. I may try to srape out and replace a small section of caulking, to see how big of a job it is!

Thanks again!
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SD - Just thinking - if I place the cam cleat where the line enters the winch, form the aft block, it would be hard to loosed the sheet, as I would nee to remove the wraps on the winch, and then lift the line out of the cleat, before it would loosen. Perhaps I misunderstood! Any clarification would help.
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Most everything you are proposing is sane, sensible and will imporve your enjoyment of the boat.

I second the recommendation for Lewmar clutches instead of spinloc...but also suggest getting current era D1 lewmars, as the old design of them that can still be found for "a bargain" at various second hand and discountclearence marine places are much less reliable and tend to eject springs at innoportune moments. (The current model is brillient, though).

I have great doubts about the portlight frame fitting the inside. Most boats are curved and slanted even where they appear straight, and to take a window frame form the outside angles and bend and try and mould it cleanly to the isndie radius bends may be futile. Besides a nice cover/frame made fresh and special from a nice surfaced marine plywood looks great. The bolt-over windows are a good idea. PATTERN PATTERN PATTERN with card and masking tape until you get the window shapes just right, then get them cut in acrylic or whatever and come back to the boat, fit them up without bedding material and then trace around them onto your cabin sides. Two-pack paint that area within the tracing plus 2mm outside it with BLACK. This means that if the sealant/adhesive leaves a thin spot or such, yo do not have a patch of white showing through, it also provides brand new and clean paint to bed too. Wait at least 48 hours after painting to make sure the paint has finished outgassing before actually bedding down the windows. The advantage of the black paint extending just beyond the outline is that it gives you a perfectly clean masked edge of black, which reduced the problem with slightly wobbly lines from the sealing caulk for the windows oozing out unevenly.
Use at least 6mm acrylic for bolt-on windows. There are literally about two dozen more hints and instructions, one of them being GET SOME HELP.

If the hull deck join is not opening up and smilling as you are sailing along and the boat is getting flexed by the shrouds during a jybe or tack....Chances are there is a lot to say for leaving it alone.





-1st Question - Is this necessary, as I see that the hull to deck joint is glassed / tabbed together on the inside of the cabin.

I am not sure this is the case, as such, there are any number of cheap and common ways in which factories got this look without actually doing a join proper.

- 2nd question - If I recaulk the joint, should I consider drilling out the scew holes, and through bolting the joint instead - or would this be overkill. To me it looks like a simple outside flange joint, but Seafarer says it is a girder type joint - If any Seafarer owner can do a little drawing of this joint, I would appreciate it!

It depends on the exact join, but I am a an of through bolting myself. Some of the best results come form buying an alloy toe-rail that can have the tapped holes put in it so as to act as the "nut" part of the equation and get tightened down as a very strong, reinforced three layered sandwich.


- Can't afford to replace my Lewmar 40 sheet winches, with self-tailing models. But, I would like to get rid of the cleats, as people could then sit comfortably, on the teak rails, next to the winches. Has anyone replaced cleats with cam cleats, or something similar? If so, where / what angle did you mount them on?

Mount them wherever makes sense that involves the rope going ina straight line. Take a scrap of rope, tie a knot around your headsail track block and then lead the bitter end of the rope to your winch, wrap it round a few times as per real life when sailing, now hold the tailed end of the rope somewhat stiuff and move it around to give yourself the possible lines along which you can set a cam cleat (or V cleat) and it will also give you the optimal angle to set it at. I like having two different cam cleats per sheet winch, because there are times you find it easier to cleat off forwards of the winch and times that back of the winch works better...it also means you always have a spare.



Sasha
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Northeaster—

Hmm... good point... if you needed to ease the sheet, you'd be in serious trouble—that would suck. Sorry, not enough coffee today...

Where are your sheet winches currently located? Are they on the coamings of the cockpit??? Do you have a photo of the setup you could post. That would help a lot.

The tricky part of this is that it will be coming off the winch, and you have to have the lead from the winch into the cam cleat such that it doesn't interfere with your ability to use the winch. Also, you'd probably want the cam cleats setup symetrically for the port and starboard winches.

You'll probably need to make a mounting block of some sort for any cam cleat, so that it is angled to point towards the top of the winch, so that the line coming off the winch leads fair into it.

Sasha's advice on the ports is quite good, especially the part about painting the exterior border black.

His idea of having two cleats per winch is also good, since if you're single handing it may make more sense to have the sheets cleated towards you, and if you have crew they may prefer to use the ones away so that they have more room to work.

Sasha—

I think the frames on the interior would mainly be as a trim molding, to hide the cut fiberglass edges of the ports from view.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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Last edited by sailingdog; 01-09-2008 at 04:16 PM.
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Sd. I know, and I got that, but they are sun-brittle white plastic frames that are used to living on the outside radius curve of the hull...he is planning to bring them in and mount them to the inside radius curve....I think there is a good chance they will just crack and shatter. also, I think they would look really ugly compared to getting a sheet of ply and attacking it with a jigsaw and some varnish.

Sasha
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Sasha-

I didn't think he was going to re-use the existing frames from his OP. Just that he was going to frame the ports on the interior. If he is planning on using the existing frames that is a horrible idea.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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Sasha and SD - I will try mocking up a sheet line, and seeing if I can find a good fore and aft position for cleats. SD- Yes, I believe that I would need to make up angled bases to have the line enter the cleat, as the winches are on the fairly wide cockpit comings.

I haven't noticed the hull to deck joint opening, as it is covered, on the outside, by a rubber rubrail, rather than a toerail on top of the joint. The slotted rubber rail fits over the side of the joint, concealing it. Inside, it is covered in glass / cloth. Sasha - you certainly may be correct in your thought that the glassing over could be mostly cosmetic / superficial.
I do need to remove the rub rail anyway, to be able to paint the deck properly, so taking out the screws, attempting to scrape and recaulk the joints is probably an extar days work. Then, drilling the screw holes, so they exit out the bottom, to install through bolts would not be a large job. The bolt heads, and nuts would be conclealed, once I put the rubrail back over the joint.

Re: the portlights - great advice on the painting / installation, and use of wood to conceal the fiberglass. There are white plastic inside "frames" now,but they do not cover the raw fiberglass holes, as this was covered by the outside "cheap plastic frames", which extended inside the opening, to cover the "sides" of the cut fiberglass.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
I would recommend you get Lewmar line clutches, rather than Spinlock line clutches. From what I've personally seen, and from the PS reports I've read, the Lewmar clutches do less damage to the lines and are far more reliable and easy to release. The spinlock line clutches can often jam and require you to tension the line before they will release.
I second this recommendation. I would go with the D1 series, they are the best on the market as far as I can tell and strangely the cheapest too. IIRC Lewmar still holds an active patent on the design, expect to see everyone copy them the moment that patent expires.



Do not use clutches for any sheets, that is a bad idea IMHO, simple horn jam cleats are my favorite for those, two wraps and a tug and you are good to go. Lots of people like cam cleats but I hate them, under load they can get difficult to release (which is when you most need to release em) and it's like target practice to get your line in the groove. A horn jam cleat can be used properly without looking at it and releases under load easily, really great idea IMHO.



I'm actually using those blue rubber winchers on my boat and love em, love em, love em. As self tailers they are not so hot, don't expect much on that front, but as simple cleats right on the winch they can't be beat. Talk about removing deck clutter!

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