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Crimping versus Soldering

117K views 285 replies 73 participants last post by  desert rat 
#1 ·
I am not trying to bring up another very heated argument on this board, but I would like to tell anyone still soldering that almost without exception, EVERY soldered joint on the V-42 we have is corroding and failing. It may have taken close to 20 years to do it, but we did not find these issues on ANY of the crimped joints... NONE.

If that is not a first hand testimonial to crimp over solder, I do not know what is.

- CD
 
#2 · (Edited)
Cd..

That has been my experience too. I've re-wired my fair share of boats over the years and without question the soldered joints are the ones to fail, corrode or both.

The other thing I've found is the wires tend snap just above the solder joint. This is probably due to solder creep which makes the wire more brittle because it's now, in a sense, a single conductor wire and has lost it's multi-strand flexibility.

I do a two part process, crimp /heat shrink with a proper marine grade adhesive lined heat crimp terminals usually made (or sourced) by Anchor, FTZ or AMP.. This become a hermetically sealed joint..
 
#3 ·
I've seen soldered joins fail, and often far sooner than a properly installed crimp with adhesive-lined heat-shrink will. As Halekai has pointed out, they're far more subject to fatigue than a properly crimped join would be, since the solder does effectively convert the nice flexible strands into a single solid stiff wire.

A bunch of hints to making a crimped connection that will last.

First, use a good ratcheting crimping tool, which will allow you to apply fairly consistent pressure on all of your crimps. Non-ratcheting crimpers will not give a consistent amount of pressure on the crimp.

Second, use good marine-grade crimp terminals—non-marine grade ones will corrode out rather quickly.

Third, use good marine-grade tinned wire. Marine grade wire is pre-tinned, and has more, finer strands, for greater vibration fatigue resistance.

Fourth, use a decent adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing. The adhesive lining is what really makes the connection waterproof. :) Don't skimp on this step.
 
#4 ·
I second sailingdog. The only reason for soldering wires is because marine grade tinned wire is not being used, and it is an attempt to protect the copper wire. Tinning the wire yourself also leaves it stiff and subject to stress and vibration fatigue. In addition, standard pvc insulated wire is not waterproof. A quick immersion in water (I don't know where from, maybe your bilge pump is shot or you're sinking) could very quickly open a live wire internally.
 
#7 ·
Yea of little faith...you're doubting the great and all powerful Cruisingdad... :)

Damn... I said that with almost a straight face.
 
#9 ·
Degrading the insulation doesn't probably make it caustic...but it probably does make it more porous, leading to moisture getting in and kicking off the corrosion process.

Some insulation might be PVC-based and as such, heating it might release Hydrogen Chloride gas...which when added to water becomes Hydrochloric acid. :)
 
#10 ·
I have heard of brush on electrical tape being recommended over heat shrink tubing. Because it goes on as liquid it fills in the connection very well and when it hardens creates an exception seal.

Any experience with this?
 
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#14 ·
I'd have to second what Halekai said. The trick is getting ADHESIVE-LINED heat shrink tubing, which is a bit tougher to find than regular heat shrink tubing.
I have heard of brush on electrical tape being recommended over heat shrink tubing. Because it goes on as liquid it fills in the connection very well and when it hardens creates an exception seal.

Any experience with this?
 
#11 · (Edited)
Tim,

Tim,

I've used it and you need to consider a few things.

1) Liquid electrical tape gives minimal strain relief

2) It's very messy

3) It's thicker than you would think and does not flow into nooks and crannies the way one would assume it should.

4) Adhesive lined heat shrink, when done correctly, actually forces, from the shrinking/squeezing action, the adhesive into the nooks and crannies better than Liquid Electrical Tape from my experience.

5) Adhesive lined heat shrink will give you real strain relief and move the flex point out away from the crimp which should add far better longevity.

Battery World Portland or Ed's Batteries are the places to buy all your marine wire, connectors and adhesive lined heat shrink tubing & batteries in this area!

Even with my deep Hamilton Marine commercial discount and my West Marine / Port supply commercial discount Battery World still blows them away price wise for connectors, tinned wire, batteries and heat shrink!

I re-wired my battery bank last summer and replaced every cable right back to the engine and alternator. Total cost for all supplies including the wire, heat shrink & battery lugs was $104.00 at Battery world. The same gauge wire, lugs and heat shrink at WM, with my discount, was going to be over $225.00....
 
#12 ·
Thanks Maine Sail, excellent information, especially on where to get my supplies. I did not even know I could get the marine grade wire anywhere other than WM or Hamilton.
 
#16 ·
The reason why crimping is by far the superior method of making a good electrical connection is that a properly compressed connection (that means, the right tool, for the right size connector and the right pressure applied to the crimp) will make the wires & connector pretty much become one. Some people refer to this as a "cold weld".

This is what a proper crimp looks like if you cut it half
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/GL.jpg

As you can see, the wires & connector become one. It eliminates all voids between wires, thus keeping any air out. This prevents corrossion, which is the #1 problem in electrical connections. Corrosion increases the resistance of the connection, which leads to overheating.

Check out this article "This is NOT a crimper"...good information
http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page7.html
This one also has a lot of good information.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html

While soldering does "seal" most of the connection area, mechanically, it is a fairly weak connection, especially with all the vibrations on a boat, which add to crimping being better.
 
#17 ·
Another real problem with soldering and why the ABYC code recommends crimping over it is that in the case of a circuit or wire with high electrical loads, the solder can often heat up enough to soften... combine that with wires that are vibrating... you can get a loose hot live wire inside a boat... that's bad. A crimped connection, done properly, isn't ever going to come apart.
 
#18 ·
I personally do not have experience with the liquid tape stuff. Comming from the electrical industry, I can tell you that no one uses that stuff on the residential, commercial, industrial or utility business, so I would have my doubts as to how good it is.

Yes, adhesive lined heat shrink is the way to go. It is great, it will seal the heck out of a connection, but just be careful not to burn the heat shrink. The stuff is quite expensive at WM, and please keep in mide that it is also size specific, so use the correct size or it will not seal.
 
#20 ·
Dipping the ends of a cut rope come to mind, but not much electrically... have any examples???
 
#21 ·
Nutz!. I've been soldering connections on the last two boats figurin' I was going the extra mile. This thread is going to save me some time and grief.
 
#22 ·
Sometimes, the easier, cheaper, simpler way to do things is also the right way to do things. :)
 
#23 ·
Regarding this thread, it has actually been a while since this was dicsussed. Bringing up these topics periodically is good for discussion because it allows others that did not follow the thread at the time or were not members at the time to enter into the debate. That being said, although I don't mind another discourse on soldering versus crimping, it was not why I brought this up. It was to point out a very specific example of what happens to soldered connections on a boat. THis is a first hand, twenty year old "beta test", on the effects of soldering: it does not hold up and does not last. Given that many of the other connections were original crimps, and they did not fail, I can see no reason to solder on a boat and feel ABYC should change from not reccomending to soldering, to flat out rejecting it.

If I recall correctly, and I do not have the rules in front of me, I believe it says something like, "The use of soldered joints is not reccomended on any vessel..."

I feel it should say, "The use of soldered joints will NOT be used on any vessel..."

Maybe my boat is only one example and not conclusive in determining the long term effects of soldering, but given the other testimonials, I feel it sure does not play in the favor of soldering joints, under any circumstances.

I will also point out that, although we had corrosion on either side of the joints (which I would almost guess came from "super heating the copper", though I cannot be sure), the most serious corrosion actually came from the joints themselves. THe solder had hairline cracks which had corroded and made the joint poor. In some cases, this joint had failed alltogether an you could bend the connection at that break.

Regarding liquid tape:

I have used it. THe term black snot comes to mind. I have used it to fill the back side of lugs that I have crimped to seal them off from air/moisture (the part that, after you crimp, would face the lug after you heat shrink... not sure if I am describing it correctly). I have also used it to paint on the threads of terminal connections as a type of electrical locktite to slow/prevent nuts from easily backing off. I think it does have its uses. However, I do not think it is in any way a substitute for heat shrink, and I absolutely cringe any time I have to pull it out. It makes a horrible mess.

Just my experiences.

- CD
 
#24 ·
Ah, come on CD. We both know that soldering can save 1/10th to 1/2 of an ounce over a proper crimped connection on each connection, and on a racing boat all those ounces add up and slow you down. So, they only last twenty years, by then it is an old tired racing boat ready for the glue factory anyway.[G]

Kinda like those double-layer Sailnet burgees. Great concept, but way too heavy to be flown on any competitive racer![VBG]
 
#25 ·
HS—

We're talking about CD and Catalinas... they're so slow the additional weight doesn't matter. :)

CD—

BTW, the real corrosion problems are probably caused by the different metals that are used in the solder and galvanic issues between them, rather than the heating of the connection area.
 
#26 ·
I'll share with you a non boat related (but solder splice related) story. A guy brought his beautiful street rod into my shop. The problem was that the fuel pump would shut down intermittently. When I was finally able to duplicate the problem, I traced it back to a connection that he had very carefully made with a solder joint. The car hadn't been together very long and had very few miles, so vibration hadn't killed it. The solder joint looked very good, the wires were all tight and the solder was smooth and shiney. Every now and then, the current flow would just stop. I replaced the joint with a good crimp connector (I use the ones with glue filled heat shrink built on) and the problem has never been back.

So even if you do a REALLY good job soldering, it's still not as good as a proper crimp connection.
 
#27 ·
I'm wondering...

What causes a vibration so large that electrical wires would break off at the solder joint? Internal engine (which I don't have so I'm not too familiar with its vibration)? Sailing to windward for long stretches? Stuff banging into the wires? Seems like wires breaking due to vibration would be A LOT of vibration. Just wondering, haven't experienced this yet.
 
#30 ·
What causes a vibration so large that electrical wires would break off at the solder joint? Internal engine (which I don't have so I'm not too familiar with its vibration)? Sailing to windward for long stretches? Stuff banging into the wires? Seems like wires breaking due to vibration would be A LOT of vibration. Just wondering, haven't experienced this yet.
Boat in general vibrate. Even sitting at the slip with a strong wind whipping through the rigging will cause vibration. Start that crack-pot diesel (which is probably mounted right on the stringers, with or without rubber feet) and it REALLY vibrates. Multiply that times hours, days, years...

It is not something that will happen immediately. It happens over time. THese joints were between 10-20 years old. HOWEVER, that does not mean it took them 10-20 years to fail. They were likely already at the point of failure some time back. My guess is that they were already showing a lot of resistance and V/A drop. I suspect a nice storm offshore or anything else to put a good stress on the boat would have taken its toll on them. And incidentally, that is exactly when you DON'T want them to fail. All the more reason to crimp.

- CD
 
#28 ·
Thanks for all this info everyone!
I was tought as a kid to use a non acid core solder..heat shrink tube . used this on heavy trucks ,machienery and trailers .Every trailer I ever built for light systems ..ect!

I have to rewire my mast and go with led lights for up grade ..might as well do it once ..Thanks

Liquid tape > we use on the bottom of back packs to save the bottoms from getting worn out prematurly . works very good and just touch it up when its gets worn.
 
#31 ·
Not just vibration, but occasional access to panels, or the occasional tug on the harness will cause enough mechanical fatigue in a solder joint to cause it to fail. Soldering requires a long list of prerequisite conditions to create a satisfactory joint, and even then, as mentioned you have created a solid strand vice multistrand. That alone is reason enough not to solder. You don't use solid wire on a boat for the same reason.
 
#32 ·
Well I for one

am glad you brought it up again..Its amazing what Im still learning after 50 years...I knew about cold welding in cable manufacturing and the like but this is the first time I have seen evidence of it being possible with crimp fittings...I must be doing them very wrong as you can pull mine apart without much effort..I have used then for years as what I thought was a slip shot replacement for a good soldering...I vacillate between whatever tool is handy to crimp with... however I cant say that the cheap 4.00 crimpers do any better job then a 4.00 pair of side cutters...but now at least I know why I should go buy a 30.00 crimper...Old dogs do learn new tricks...Thanks to everyone who posted especially the links to thoes sites showing propper crimps...
 
#33 ·
am glad you brought it up again..Its amazing what Im still learning after 50 years...I knew about cold welding in cable manufacturing and the like but this is the first time I have seen evidence of it being possible with crimp fittings...I must be doing them very wrong as you can pull mine apart without much effort..I have used then for years as what I thought was a slip shot replacement for a good soldering...I vacillate between whatever tool is handy to crimp with... however I cant say that the cheap 4.00 crimpers do any better job then a 4.00 pair of side cutters...but now at least I know why I should go buy a 30.00 crimper...Old dogs do learn new tricks...Thanks to everyone who posted especially the links to thoes sites showing propper crimps...
It may not be the crimpers but the proper size connectors that you need to use.
 
#34 ·
Oh I have always used

the right size..albeit cheap ones..There is most likely half the culprit

Off topic...how do you guys get your quotes in that nice blue box?
 
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