Crimping versus Soldering - Page 15 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #141  
Old 05-27-2009
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Mitiempo—

The FAA, USAF and the ABYC obviously don't know a thing about electrical connections on a moving vessel...
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #142  
Old 05-27-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,998
Thanks: 5
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 11
wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about
I have an open mind on this subject for the moment, I am too new to boating to have developed a strong opinion one way or the other, I'm still collecting information so this thread is useful to me.

For now the way I do my connections is to strip the end of the wire, slip a bit of heat shrink over the wire and move it far enough down the wire so it doesn't get hot during soldering, then I crimp a connector on the end of the wire, then solder it like I have done for years in electronics. Once that is done and the connection has cooled I move the heat shrink up to the edge of the connector and fire it with a lighter to seal the connection. That works for me and I do not remember ever having a failed connection doing this, but I do not have experience using these connections on a boat. Works great in land vehicles though, so unless there are corrosion issues I would expect it to work on a boat too.
__________________
What are you pretending not to know ?

Please support my
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #143  
Old 05-27-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 547
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 8
SteveInMD is on a distinguished road
Not all solder is the same. You have to use solder that is compatible with the wire you are using. The heat from soldering and the acid can damage wire that is not intended to be soldered. The pros will tell you crimp only and use heat shrink tubing with the hot glue lining (which is not cheap stuff).
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #144  
Old 05-27-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 116
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
eolon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Mitiempo—

The FAA, USAF and the ABYC obviously don't know a thing about electrical connections on a moving vessel...
Laf! 5% of the USAF's electronics contain vacuum tubes - and the current regs still specify to lace wire runs with string; they aren't too keen on them newfangled wire ties.

The great thing about the USAF is that nothing stays in service for long, and everything gets inspected and/or replaced every 13 weeks by dozens of trained technicians. On that schedule and MTBF, I guess I would use crimped connectors throughout my boat. Unfortunately, it's just me. So I'll solder and crimp both.

Best Regards,


e

.::.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #145  
Old 05-27-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rhode island
Posts: 148
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
jfdubu is on a distinguished road
I've always believed that solder connections provide a better electrcal connection especially for signals. I just made a 5 pin soldered connection for my windex to meter signal at the base of the mast. I used a D9 male female computer connection and sealed it very well. There's no mechanical load on it so barring the wire getting snagged in the heat of battle it should last quite a while.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #146  
Old 05-27-2009
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Washington State
Posts: 9,904
Thanks: 3
Thanked 107 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
I posted pictures of this somewhere on here and have discussed this before, but here is some first hand knowledge between the two.

When we bought Dad's boat (a Tayana Vancouver 42), we ended up pulling out and replacing a lot of the wiring. None of the wiring was tinned. Everything that was soldered was cracked and corroded. Pretty much everything that was crimped was fine. The exception to the crimping only came on some exterior wiring (nav lights, for instance) though 99% of it was soldered too and a mess.

I will never solder anything on a boat if I can help it. I reccomend to everyone that crimping is the ONLY method to use on a boat. This is a good first hand representation of about 20 years of "comparisson".

- CD
__________________
Sailnet Moderator



1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #147  
Old 05-27-2009
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,065
Thanks: 0
Thanked 68 Times in 59 Posts
Rep Power: 7
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
By the way, military specs for crimps are:
22 gauge..............15lbs
20 " ..............19lbs
18 " ..............38lbs
16 " ..............50lbs
14 " ..............70lbs
12 " ..............110lbs
10 " ..............150lbs

I wonder how many inexpertly done solder joints will meet these standards.
Brian
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #148  
Old 05-27-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 306
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
thekeip is on a distinguished road
In my own experience, if a solder joint looks right, it probably is. Experience will teach you what "looks right" means. Crimps give you no such visual clue.
A good technician knows how and when to use either method...each has it's place. A connection that defies soldering can often be crimped satisfactorily...non tinned, oxidized wire comes to mind.
Howard Keiper
Berkeley
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #149  
Old 05-27-2009
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Washington State
Posts: 9,904
Thanks: 3
Thanked 107 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
The issue is that the solder cracks. The cracked solder corrodes. The corrosion causes failure.

It has no place in a boat or I would guess a car or plane either.

Now, what I have witnessed may very well be a weekend warrior electrician with a blow torch and a roll of flux. But my first hand experience after reviewing the joints has been very negative. Given that crimping has shown no such negative effects, and is pretty darned easy to do, I cannot see why anyone would solder on a boat.
__________________
Sailnet Moderator



1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #150  
Old 05-27-2009
Maine Sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 5,293
Thanks: 10
Thanked 117 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice
Data??

Quote:
Originally Posted by eolon View Post
War stories aside;

Mechanical (crimping) connections are formed by plastic deformation of the metals. The resultant connection starts out tight and then loosens over time.
IMHO this is pure speculation and your own personal theory. If it is not please direct us to a white paper supporting this claim. A properly crimped connection will be cold formed and will not "loosen" over time unless done incorrectly. If crimps are ok for NASA, Boeing and many other high tech high critical use applications they will be more than fine on your boat and have been on millions of boats and cars, and trucks and on and on and on. Most of the crimps on my own boat were 30 years old when I bought her and still passing current just fine. There were two solder joints that had failed both due to capillary action of solder creep up the wire which caused fractures.




Quote:
Originally Posted by eolon View Post
Once the connection loosens slightly, its conductivity plummets; this is why high power DC connections often overheat - they become poor conductors, and the current increases over time - until the connection is hot to the touch, or your boat burns to the waterline.
This is EXACTLY why the ABYC says solder only should never be used. In an over temp situation the solder can melt and you'll have a live wire. If you are soldering you must crimp first or have anotehr means of mechanical connection.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eolon View Post
Exposure to humid air and salt increases oxidative degradation.
This is why heat shrink crimp connections and tinned wire should be used. As one who lives in the North East, where nearly every home has a deep well, with LONG wire runs and fairly high amp draws, we just don't see these failures. You said "humid", how "humid" are wires sealed 200+ feet below the surface, that live underwater for their entire working life span and that last for 15, 20 years or more or until the pump fails? When almost every industry uses crimps reliably, without solder, including aerospace, and have been for years and years and years I think perporting that you must solder and crimp is over the top. Perhaps 2% of boaters know how to actually make a real solder joint. The rest will only make things worse.

The well at our old house was 245 feet deep and a true artesian. It over flows out the well cap almost all year. The crimps are about 240 feet below ground and totally submerged! The three wires connecting the pumps are CRIMPED and HEAT SHRINKED with what are called Stakons (basically adhesive lined crimps). These bare copper, non-tinned, wires have been under water now for over 13 years only crimped and heat shrinked..

Next time I replace my well pump I will be sure to let the well guy know that his hundreds of wells he's installed are going to fail because they are not both soldered and crimped.. I'm sure he'll get a real chuckle out of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eolon View Post
Crimped connections are a perfect candidate for crevice corrosion - the interstitial spaces between wires and between the wires and the connector pull in water by capillary action. Oxidative and galvanic corrosion increase the looseness of the connection.
First, in a PROPERLY executed crimp there will be NO interstitial spaces for water to wick. A proper crimp is cold formed and becomes a solid mass of copper. Water does not penetrate the solid copper pipes in your house and it does not penetrate a properly executed cold formed crimp as it becomes a solid mass at the crimp/lug/wire interface. Cheap crimp tools do not always make a true cold formed or cold welded connection.

The battery lugs & wire harnesses on my wife's car are crimped and not even hermetically sealed nor is tinned wire used. Her car is blasted with wet road salt all winter long, the engine bay looks like a salt lick right about now, and has been for six years. The car also resides only 40 some-odd yards form the moist salt air of the Atlantic ocean 365 days per year. It also lives outdoors as I have more important things to put in the garage like boat stuff. I've yet to replace a battery cable on any of our vehicles nor a "crimped" wire harness. Perhaps I should call Honda and warn them of the impending battery cable disaster that is awaiting them for not using solder??

A hermetically sealed connection, using the heavy duty adhesive lined heat shrink I use, the same type of heat shrink used by WELL DRILLERS to seal SUBMERGED wires, is not and will NOT be exposed to moist salt air when done correctly. These connections are water tight. Remember we have millions & millions of wells and well pumps in this country that are not soldered, and reside submerged below hundreds of feet of water pressure. What keeps these connections dry? Adhesive lined heat shrink only!! If you have no "salt air" or no moisture you have NO corrosion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by eolon View Post
Vibrations, and harmonic frequencies of all of the primary vibrations on a sail boat concentrate naturally at stress risers - the crimped connection is a huge stress riser, and will often fail through vibrational induced brittle fracture at the connection point.

Funny this is the exact reasoning the ABYC uses for NOT using solder and for using marine grade, tinned, MULTI-STRANDED wire that meets UL-1426. The multi stranding and strain relief built into either heat shrink crimps or insulated crimps prevent work hardening by design solder creep does not.

Sure if a person with high soldering skills solders and crimps a terminal and uses a heat sink to prevent creep beyond the strain relief a solder joint will work fine. The harsh reality is that perhaps less than 2% of all boaters know how to solder properly or will ever do enough of it to develop the skill set. As I said above they can do more harm by soldering, without experience, than they can do with proper crimping tools and connectors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eolon View Post
Vibrational analysis has proved over the last century or so that a properly soldered connection will last many orders of magnitude longer than a mechanical connection.
Can you please point us to a reference white papper that supports this "factual" claim in the marine environment??

Perhaps you should spend some time educating the engineers at NASA, Lockheed, Boeing, Lear Jet, SAE, ABYC, Blue Seas, Paneltronics, Prestolite Electric, Hinckley, Hatteras, Carrier Corp, 3M, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, Otis Elevator or any other company that uses millions of crimps reliably.



Quote:
Originally Posted by eolon View Post
Many of the horror stories of soldered connections are no doubt from uninformed boaters using acid core solder that he had left over from the plumbing project to solder wires. The acid flux will eat the copper and tin in about a week. And of course, it is perfectly easy to make a solder joint look great and be useless; cold solder joints are difficult to detect - you have to know how to solder.
Thank you for making my point.. Very few boaters know how to solder correctly and SHOULD NOT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eolon View Post
Mechanical joints are easier to test (pull on the wire) but you will never make acceptable crimped connections with the Wal-Mart crimper that came free with the 12 feet of 12 gauge wire.
We're in full agreement!! You need the proper tools and quality conenctors like those made by Ancor, FTZ or AMP.




Quote:
Originally Posted by eolon View Post
Anyhow...

The best of both methods can be had, and the drawbacks of each reduced, by soldering a connection first and then adding a mechanical connector.
Again, this is bass ackwards. You should never solder first then crimp as it defeats the entire mechanical cold formed crimp. It can also damage the dies on the crimp tool. Here's what NASA has to say:

"4.3.4 Crimping. Stranded wire shall be used for crimping (Requirement). Crimping of solid
wire is prohibited. Crimping of solder tinned wire is prohibited."


Somebody want to tell NASA they are wrong..
__________________
______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.



Last edited by Maine Sail; 01-28-2011 at 02:19 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advice, please on crimping wire connections... FrankLanger Gear & Maintenance 67 10-09-2012 07:22 AM
Rope Cutting Tip for Weller 8200 Soldering Gun? SEMIJim Gear & Maintenance 6 11-18-2007 10:17 AM
Turnbuckles - Stainless versus Aluminum Finallybuyingaboat Gear & Maintenance 9 10-05-2007 09:47 PM
da versus high tech sailon2win Racing 5 10-05-2004 04:07 AM
Power versus Sail Tom Wood Cruising Articles 0 12-23-2000 07:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:22 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.