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  #211  
Old 03-31-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
As stated about 100 posts ago, ABYC doesn't allow solder to be the only connection. Crimp or crimp and solder but crimping is a must.
ABYC does make an exception for battery lugs which can be soldered without crimping. Also, ABYC is not the law, their standards are advisory only and entirely voluntary. Lots of electronics equipment wiring connections are soldered only. Soldering is fine as long as you provide adequate strain relief on the wiring to prevent flexing of the soldered joint.

Eric
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  #212  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairbank56 View Post
ABYC does make an exception for battery lugs which can be soldered without crimping.
Eric,

The ABYC does make an exception for battery lugs provided they meet the specifications for soldering of 1.5 times wire diameter. there are lots of battery lugs sold that do not meet this criteria.It is my understanding that this exception came about because factory pre-made battery cables are often factory soldered and cheaper for some builders to use.

E-11
11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of
mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the
connection shall be so located or supported as to
minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder
changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.

EXCEPTION: Battery lugs with a solder contact
length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the
conductor.

NOTE: When a stranded conductor is soldered, the
soldered portion of the conductor becomes a solid
strand conductor, and flexing can cause the
conductor to break at the end of the solder joint
unless adequate additional support is provided.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fairbank56 View Post
Also, ABYC is not the law, their standards are advisory only and entirely voluntary.
This is entirely true for DIY's, unless, as I mentioned above, you need insurance and your surveyor notes your connections as he deems unsafe and your insurance company won't issue coverage until said items have been repaired..

The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR for boat builders, which is mandatory, and partly from evidence based practices so some of what is in the ABYC standards is mandatory if you are a boat builder.

Solder can be fine but should be done properly and with a mechanical connection, then solder. A wire slice, as in Western Union, pig tail slice etc. does not satisfy the ABYC requirement of "mechanical connection" and I have personally spoken with John and asked for clarification on this question.

It is important to note that the ABYC does NOT ban the use of solder on boats. It makes suggestions about how to safely use solder on a boat and that suggestion is a mechanical connection, then solder, and then properly strain relieved. In my 35 years on and around and working on boats I can practically count on one hand the number of times I have come across "properly" soldered wire joints.

Having worked in three different boat yards, on "yachts", with a friend who is a marine surveyor and on my own boats and customers boats it has allowed me to see with a large, N=LOTS, of solder failures. On your own boat, N=1, failures might be quite rare, but as the N grows, N=500, N=3000, N= 5000. N-10,000 etc. so does the rate of failure/success between solder and crimps on boats. The failure rates I have seen for soldered connections is significantly higher than that of crimped connections, because most folks just don't know how to do it properly. When done correctly they are fine, and some folks DO know how, but that happens very, very rarely in my experience. The PO of my own boat was an EE and still made horrible and unsafe soldered joints..


Quote:
Originally Posted by fairbank56 View Post
Lots of electronics equipment wiring connections are soldered only.


Yes factory soldered joints are almost always fine as they are done to a standard. DIY soldered joints are most often not done to a level that can even compare to a wave soldered device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairbank56 View Post
Soldering is fine as long as you provide adequate strain relief on the wiring to prevent flexing of the soldered joint.
I would add:

If a proper mechanical connection exists, if a heat sink was used to prevent solder creep, if done correctly to prevent a cold solder joint , if the right solder was used to prevent corrosion etc.....

I have NO problem with the use of solder if done by a competent solderer. Tthe reality is that I have seen so few good soldered connections on boats that I am a touch skeptical that it happens all that often.

My real concern is for a newbie DIY to hit Rat Shack, buy a $4.99 soldering iron and begin re-wiring the boat... Crimps for the masses are a lot easier and historically, in the marine environment, more reliable, hence the ABYC's suggestions for a mechanical connection then solder...
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 03-31-2010 at 09:46 AM.
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  #213  
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"My real concern is for a newbie DIY to hit Rat Shack, buy a $4.99 soldering iron and begin " All a newb can do with one of those, is burn his hand as it swings around on the stiff little power cord.
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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"My real concern is for a newbie DIY to hit Rat Shack, buy a $4.99 soldering iron and begin " All a newb can do with one of those, is burn his hand as it swings around on the stiff little power cord.

Yeah kind of the like the stiff, rebar like, useless power cords on all Harbor Freight tools......
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  #215  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR for boat builders, which is mandatory, and partly from evidence based practices so some of what is in the ABYC standards is mandatory if you are a boat builder.
Well, here's what CFR Title 46 Shipping, subpart C part 120 Electrical Installations says;

(g) Each connection to a conductor or terminal part of a conductor must be made within an enclosure and have either:

(1) A pressure type connector on each conductor;

(2) A solder lug on each conductor;

(3) A splice made with a pressure type connector to a flexible lead or conductor; or

(4) A splice that is soldered, brazed, or welded to a flexible lead or conductor.

Quote:
Yes factory soldered joints are almost always fine as they are done to a standard. DIY soldered joints are most often not done to a level that can even compare to a wave soldered device.
I was talking about things like accessory connectors provided by manufacturer's with their equipment where it is up to the installer to provide the necessary cable and install these connectors by soldering the wiring to the pins of the connectors using a soldering iron. These are not done using wave soldering techniques such as is done with printed circuit boards.

I agree that the average DIY does not have the knowledge/skill/experience to do marine wiring properly and in accordance with established standards and laws. I am a marine electronics service technician and installer with 34 years of experience (you have one year on me). I have seen it all as well, and not just DIY's, but by so called expert professional's.

Eric
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okay so we know soldering is bad, so i will just use wire nuts with silicone inside. then maybe some electric tape to hold the wire nut on. i already have the electric tape on board to tape the muzzle of my hand gun up so water does not get in


okay its started have fun







the above is all in jest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairbank56 View Post
Well, here's what CFR Title 46 Shipping, subpart C part 120 Electrical Installations says;

(g) Each connection to a conductor or terminal part of a conductor must be made within an enclosure and have either:

(1) A pressure type connector on each conductor;

(2) A solder lug on each conductor;

(3) A splice made with a pressure type connector to a flexible lead or conductor; or

(4) A splice that is soldered, brazed, or welded to a flexible lead or conductor.


I was talking about things like accessory connectors provided by manufacturer's with their equipment where it is up to the installer to provide the necessary cable and install these connectors by soldering the wiring to the pins of the connectors using a soldering iron. These are not done using wave soldering techniques such as is done with printed circuit boards.

I agree that the average DIY does not have the knowledge/skill/experience to do marine wiring properly and in accordance with established standards and laws. I am a marine electronics service technician and installer with 34 years of experience (you have one year on me). I have seen it all as well, and not just DIY's, but by so called expert professional's.

Eric
I was specifically referring to CFR 33 Part 183 not the CFR which covers large ships. ABYC is geared for pleasure marine and things other than large tanker/ships which have their own specific standards. There is overlap between shipping and CFR 33 but they are not the same on all counts.

If you look at CFR 33 - 183 you'll see where much of E-11 is in line or pulled from it. E-11 goes deeper though than the CFR but for builders, compliance with CFR 33 is mandatory where as ABYC is not....
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 03-31-2010 at 01:24 PM.
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  #218  
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I had already checked Title 33 (Navigation and Navigable Waters) part 183 which doesn't even compare to ABYC E-11 standards and there is nothing in there with regards to crimping/soldering of cable/wiring terminations.

Title 46, Shipping, is not just for large cargo/tanker vessels, small passenger vessels are also covered with the same regulations regarding terminations that I already quoted.

Eric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairbank56 View Post
I had already checked Title 33 (Navigation and Navigable Waters) part 183 which doesn't even compare to ABYC E-11 standards and there is nothing in there with regards to crimping/soldering of cable/wiring terminations.

Title 46, Shipping, is not just for large cargo/tanker vessels, small passenger vessels are also covered with the same regulations regarding terminations that I already quoted.

Eric
Eric,

Here is what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR for boat builders, which is mandatory, and partly from evidence based practices so some of what is in the ABYC standards is mandatory if you are a boat builder.

suggestions for a mechanical connection then solder...

I never mentioned that the crimping stuff came from the CFR just that some of the ABYC standards, are in part, taken from the CFR. And as I said some of what is in the ABYC is mandatory for boat builders because some of what is in ABYC is also in the CFR. It is not mandatory because it is in the ABYC standards but rather mandatory because it is in the CFR..
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 03-31-2010 at 07:14 PM.
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  #220  
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This thread is about "Crimping versus Soldering". You seemed to bring up CFR rules in defense of ABYC rules regarding this subject when you stated "The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR". CFR rules do not say a soldered wire termination must have a "mechanical connection, then solder" as you stated. CFR rules say you can have EITHER a pressure type connector or a solder lug, EITHER a pressure type splice connector or a soldered splice.

The point is, soldering is fine when done properly just as crimping is fine when done properly just as crimping and then soldering is fine when done properly. Iv'e seen PLENTY of improperly installed terminations done either way. The debate goes on because of all the instant Internet "experts" who have little experience and don't know what the heck they are talking about.

Eric
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