Crimping versus Soldering - Page 23 - SailNet Community
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post #221 of 286 Old 03-31-2010
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... instant Internet "experts" ...
did he just call maine sail an internet expert?.... sure sounds like it to me
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post #222 of 286 Old 03-31-2010
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This thread is about "Crimping versus Soldering". You seemed to bring up CFR rules in defense of ABYC rules regarding this subject when you stated "The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR".
No, I brought it up simply to explain where and how the ABYC comes to present its standards, partly from the CFR and partly from evidence and other sources.



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CFR rules do not say a soldered wire termination must have a "mechanical connection, then solder" as you stated.
Eric, please read very carefully I NEVER stated that the CFR said that. I said the ABYC says that but never said the CFR stated that.

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CFR rules say you can have EITHER a pressure type connector or a solder lug, EITHER a pressure type splice connector or a soldered splice.
Yes that is what CFR 46 says never disputed that.

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The point is, soldering is fine when done properly just as crimping is fine when done properly just as crimping and then soldering is fine when done properly.

Yes, I think I said most of that too.

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Iv'e seen PLENTY of improperly installed terminations done either way.
Yes I too have seen all type of connections done incorrectly but more bad solder than anything, mostly due to incorrect practices.

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The debate goes on because of all the instant Internet "experts" who have little experience and don't know what the heck they are talking about.

Eric
Are you calling me an "internet expert" who does not know anything? Not very becoming behavior when we agree on the vast majority of what we are discussing. You take me out of context, make up stuff that I never said and then insult me? Cool, welcome to the forum..

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Last edited by Maine Sail; 03-31-2010 at 08:28 PM.
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post #223 of 286 Old 03-31-2010
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Are you calling me an "internet expert" who does not know anything?
Absolutely not. You are obviously quite knowledgable about the subject and the rules. I am talking about those who jump in here and make claims about this and that when they obviously don't have a clue but think they do because they just "googled it" and are now "experts". People misstate ABYC rules ALL THE TIME. It can be quite frustrating, and comical, for an experienced pro to deal with the inexperienced DIY's who think they know it all.

Eric
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post #224 of 286 Old 03-31-2010
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Absolutely not. You are obviously quite knowledgable about the subject and the rules. I am talking about those who jump in here and make claims about this and that when they obviously don't have a clue but think they do because they just "googled it" and are now "experts". People misstate ABYC rules ALL THE TIME. It can be quite frustrating, and comical, for an experienced pro to deal with the inexperienced DIY's who think they know it all.

Eric

People often think the ABYC is mandatory for them when it is not. You and I are in strong agreement on that. Still not a bad idea for a DIY to try and do projects that would comply if only for insurace surveys and re-sale surveys.

That being said, as you and I know, the ABYC standards are not perfect. There are parts I don't agree with and some points I am working with them on to get into committee, reviewed and added/changed, but for the most part it is an excellent standard and one I always try to work by because it is good and partly based in evidence, something many standards are not.

Give folks a chance here there are lots of very knowlegeable DIY's on this site as well as many industry professionals who do this day in day out...

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post #225 of 286 Old 04-01-2010
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Well; despite 23 pages of diatribe over crimping v. soldering, I feel compelled to make one more addition. I wanted to point out that on the ABYC code it says that a soldered connection would be acceptable if it is made secure from flexing at the ends of the solder joint (where wires would be bent sharply).

I am going to make the point that if you use a long enough length of adhesive lined heat shrink tubing on the solder joint; the ends of the solder joint become supported by the heat shrink tubing as it is less flexible than just the wire with it's sheath. If you are connecting two hot/ground wires with solder and you cover both individually with heat shrink; then cover both together with a larger/longer piece of heat shrink you will not only protect the connection from flexing you will protect them from chafe, moisture and corrosion.

For end point connections I would use crimp connectors with heat shrink (which are damn expensive to buy in small quantity).

What I don't understand about ABYC's protocol regarding minimizing flex of solder joints is that it does not also apply to crimped connections; as they also create a "hard/solid joint" where the wire is joined to the connector.
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post #226 of 286 Old 04-01-2010
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There are parts I don't agree with and some points I am working with them on to get into committee, reviewed and added/changed,...
Have them check into sections 11.17.4, .5, and .6 and their associated wiring diagrams. The diagrams are incorrect and Iv'e been seeing incorrectly wired isolation transformers because of this. Installers are going strictly by the diagrams and not reading the text. As an example, they wire an isolation xformer as an isolation system but connect the shore ground to the shield AND the xformer case (according to the diagram). This wiring is done inside the xformer enclosure. Then somebody comes along and connects an external bond wire to one of the xformer's mounting bolts. They have just bypassed the purpose of the isolation system. The shore ground should ONLY be connected to the xformer shield in an isolation system. Sorry, way off topic but this thread is about finished anyway.

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What I don't understand about ABYC's protocol regarding minimizing flex of solder joints is that it does not also apply to crimped connections; as they also create a "hard/solid joint" where the wire is joined to the connector.
Properly executed crimps, using the correct crimping tool, provide strain relief by design. An insulated crimp of good quality for the marine environment will consist of three pieces and two crimps will be made, one for strain relief clamping down on the jacket, and one on the bare stripped wire.

As a point of interest I have cycled both double crimps and heat shrink crimps over 100 times a full 180 degrees, side to side, with UL 1426 wire, and seen no detrimental effects..




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post #228 of 286 Old 06-16-2010
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This thread is a little bit odd because it does not discuss when, where, why. I mean, it is like asking, "Is it better to weld or to use bolts?" It depends, doesn't it?

Soldering is excellent for small things, light things, and if done in a well controlled manner. Most bad soldering joints are probably the result of working with inferior equipment, in the field, and without proper training. Dirty connectors, cold solder, etc.

For heavy gauge wire, soldering should not be used. For AWG 20 or finer, with a temperature controlled iron, it is excellent - if heat shrink tubing is applied well outside the joint on both sides, for strain relief. Or use two layers, it's not that expensive!

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This thread is a little bit odd because it does not discuss when, where, why. I mean, it is like asking, "Is it better to weld or to use bolts?" It depends, doesn't it?

Soldering is excellent for small things, light things, and if done in a well controlled manner. Most bad soldering joints are probably the result of working with inferior equipment, in the field, and without proper training. Dirty connectors, cold solder, etc.

For heavy gauge wire, soldering should not be used. For AWG 20 or finer, with a temperature controlled iron, it is excellent - if heat shrink tubing is applied well outside the joint on both sides, for strain relief. Or use two layers, it's not that expensive!

My God Man!! Do you have any idea what you've just done?
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Last edited by ulferlingsson; 06-16-2010 at 07:12 PM. Reason: forgot smiley ;)
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