Battery chargers - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 
  #1  
Old 03-01-2008
Omatako's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 2,441
Thanks: 0
Thanked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 12
Omatako will become famous soon enough
Battery chargers

There is another similar thread running but I didn't want to hi-jack it so here we go again.

I have a Xantrex smart charger powered off shorepower. It's a neat piece of kit capable of managing 3 banks in 3 distinctly different charge regimes and also properly manages up to 3 different battery types (wet cell, gel, AGM, whatever). It not only charges the assorted batteries in the boat but to also runs the inverter when appropriate without taking energy from the battery banks (don't ask me why I need this ). It works fine so problem. This the charger and I have the 50A 12V unit.

XC Battery Chargers - 12V & 24V

What I need now is a charge controller that can make the same sense out of my two alternators when I'm away from shore power.

Any recommendations that won't scare my bank manager (the one above did)?

Andre

Last edited by Omatako; 03-01-2008 at 12:16 AM. Reason: Inserted link
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 03-01-2008
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Is this Xantrex a charger or a charger/inverter? If it is a charger, it can't run the inverter... If it is a charger/inverter, how can it supply energy to the inverter side without taking it from the batteries, unless you're plugged into shorepower.

What you need is two separate charge controllers, since you can't have one for both alternators IMHO, without causing yourself some problems. How large are the alternators?? Are the connected to two different battery banks? Are any of the banks connected to a battery combiner or echo charger???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
There is another similar thread running but I didn't want to hi-jack it so here we go again.

I have a Xantrex smart charger powered off shorepower. It's a neat piece of kit capable of managing 3 banks in 3 distinctly different charge regimes and also properly manages up to 3 different battery types (wet cell, gel, AGM, whatever). It not only charges the assorted batteries in the boat but to also runs the inverter when appropriate without taking energy from the battery banks (don't ask me why I need this ). It works fine so problem. This the charger and I have the 50A 12V unit.

XC Battery Chargers - 12V & 24V

What I need now is a charge controller that can make the same sense out of my two alternators when I'm away from shore power.

Any recommendations that won't scare my bank manager (the one above did)?

Andre
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 03-01-2008
Omatako's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 2,441
Thanks: 0
Thanked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 12
Omatako will become famous soon enough
Yes it can . . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Is this Xantrex a charger or a charger/inverter? If it is a charger, it can't run the inverter...
I have turned my notebook away from the charger so that it can't read this thread (it is really clever). It has been working OK for 4 months now and I don't want it to find out that it can't

It is a charger, not a charger/inverter and despite contrary opinion, it does run an inverter. In fact the inverter it runs is a Xantrex Freedom 25. Why don't I run the inverter/charger directly off mains? Because it's a 110V, 60hz unit and I'm on 220v 50hz supply.

The charger has the ability to put out a constant 50 amps. When the batteries are fully charged and the inverter calls for power (an appliance is switched on), the power drawn by the inverter comes directly from the charger.

How do I know this? I have a Xantrex Link 20 battery monitoring system that shows no draw from the batteries and the display panel of the charger tells me how much current is being drawn by the inverter.

The Xantrex dealer tells me that only if the draw from the inverter exceeds 50 amps (not done that yet) will it draw the excess from the battery bank. Naturally, if the charger is not providing any juice, all of the draw comes from the batteries.

Moving on . . .

My alternators are 85 amps, engine mounted and 160 amps, mounted on a seperate bracket off the front of the engine. As far as I know, they charge the starter and windlass batteries and directly into the house bank respectively.

What do you mean by a battery combiner (a 1-ALL-2 switch?) and WTH is an echo charger?

Andre
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 03-01-2008
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
AHh... so it is a 220 V charger, plugged into 220 VAC shorepower that is running the inverter via the DC side... That makes sense now.. I take it that the boat is wired for 110 VAC, since this boat was bought in the USA IIRC.

A battery combiner is a device, like the BlueSea ACR that has a voltage sensor and a relay and will connect the two different banks in parallel when it senses a charging level voltage on either bank. This way, you can charge both banks off of a single charging source without having to turn the battery switch to the BOTH position.

IIRC, an echo charger is a circuit or device that will charge a second battery bank once the battery bank that the charger is attached to is topped up. Does much the same as the battery combiner, but lets the primary battery bank charge a bit more in the process.


Xantrex's Freedom inverter/charger series often have an echo charger built into them, so that they can charge two separate battery banks, with the primary bank being the larger house bank generally. This is important, since the larger house bank takes much longer to charge than the smaller starting bank generally does.

Are the two alternators voltage regulated internally? If so, why do you need a charge controller? If not, you'll want a good external charge controller that can do a three-stage intelligent battery charge.

Something like THIS would probably do the trick.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 03-01-2008
camaraderie's Avatar
moderate?
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 13,877
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 15
camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough
Andre...your alternators must have some regulation on them now. Are they internally regulated?
Also can you spell out the size quantity and type of battery you have for starter, windlass and house bank AND if any of those banks are wired for 24V operation. (Often a windlass is.)

BTW...here is the echo charger but it does not sound like you need one since you are already set up to charge both banks. It is very useful when you have a single house bank and want to charge the starting battery when the house bank is "full".
__________________
No longer posting. Reach me by PM!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 03-01-2008
Omatako's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 2,441
Thanks: 0
Thanked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 12
Omatako will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
AHh... so it is a 220 V charger, plugged into 220 VAC shorepower that is running the inverter via the DC side... That makes sense now.. I take it that the boat is wired for 110 VAC, since this boat was bought in the USA IIRC.
You have a good memory, yes my AC systems are largely 110v although I have started to integrate them with 220v.

This looks good and you can't fight about the price . I'll have a closer look at this.

ModelTypePrice
BA-RG-MC-612Max Charge Regulator 12V$00.00
BA-RG-MC-612-HMax Charge Regulator 12V w/har$00.00
BA-RG-MC-624Max Charge Regulator 24V$00.00
BA-RG-MC-624-HMax Charge Regulator 24V w/har$00.00
BA-RG-MC-632Max Charge Regulator 32V$00.00
BA-RG-MC-632-HMax Charge Regulator 32V w/har$00.00


Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Are the two alternators voltage regulated internally? If so, why do you need a charge controller?
Yes they are and that is where I believe I'll have problem at sea when I have to depend on the alts for charging. AFAIK the in-built regs do a fast charge up to 85% of capacity and then they go onto a float charge that takes forever to put in the other 15%.

Cam, I have a house bank of 4 Tojan 105's, the starter and windlass batteries are both lead acid 110Ah 12V. The windlass battery is connected to the system only by way of a charge line and a heat-sensitive isolator in the line, i.e. there are no big cables running for'ard.

I understand from other sources that if I want to put in a charge controller, I have to isolate the internal regulators. I also understand that there is a way to isolate the excitation current to the stator windings to effectively "switch off" an alternator. Any info on this would be useful because I reckon one of my answers is to switch off one alternator until it is needed. But then I'd need an echo charger (new concept to me).

Thanks for the info so far.

Andre

PS - one of my problems with 2 alts is that the ampmeter that monitors their performance reads both incoming currents together so I have no way of knowing if either one has stopped working. This happened when we sailed from the US, when an alernator stopped charging, I flicked the 1-ALL-2 switch to bring the other alt on line to the house bank to find that it was already not working!!!

Last edited by Omatako; 03-01-2008 at 10:20 PM. Reason: See PS
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 03-01-2008
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Omatako-

All smart chargers, even those in smart voltage regulators, will take a fairly long time to go from the point where bulk charging stops and the absorbtion and float phases end. An external regulator probably won't speed this up much.

A good way to solve the problem is to use the alternators to do the bulk phase charging and to use an alternative source for the float and absorption phases, like a wind gen or solar panels.

An battery combiner or echo charger would be one way to deal with it. Do you have three separate banks--start, windlass and house, or are the starter/windlass both on the same bank. From your description above, it sounds like you actually have three banks. What might make sense is to have the house bank separate, and windlass bank echo charge the start bank (or vice versa).
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 03-02-2008
Omatako's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 2,441
Thanks: 0
Thanked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 12
Omatako will become famous soon enough
SD - from a charge perspective the start and windlass are on the same bank because they are interconnected to the same alternator.

They are seperate inasmuch as the windlass battery only powers the windlass, there are no HD cables coming back to the rest of the system. If the start battery were to be flat and an attempt to start would be made, the high demand required would be requested from the windlass battery down the charge lines hence the temp-sensitive coupling which then takes the windlass battery temporarily out of the circuit (it re-estalishes the circuit when it cools down). Does that make sense?

The start battery can be brought into the house bank a vice versa with the 1-ALL-2 switch but this would not include the windlass battery.

The Link 20 battery manager recognises only two banks and by process of elimination I determined that the start and windlass are seen as one and the same. I reckon in this sitution, an echo charger as you recommend is probably the best choice.

As far as the charge rate is concerned, the Xantrex mains charger that I have has temp sensors on each battery and will charge at a full bulk rate until 95% of capacity unless any one of the batteries gets too warm. Then it will shake out only that battery bank and continue charging the rest. I suppose I was hoping achieve this with a charge manager of some sort on the alternators.

Andre
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 03-02-2008
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Personally, I would disconnect the "charge" cables that are going to the windlass battery and leave the windlass battery connected to either a battery combiner or echo charger output. This will prevent the windlass from trying to draw from the start battery or the starter from trying to draw from the windlass battery, but still provide you a way to charge the windlass battery. This would effectively leave you with THREE separate banks, which probably makes the most sense, given the information you have provided.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 03-02-2008
tjaldur's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 165
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
tjaldur is on a distinguished road
On my ship the distance between the charger/batteribanks and the windlass is about 10 meters. So my solution is to store the batteries to the windlass together with the windlass. Thus the cables from the battery to the windlass are only a foot long. In the box, under the windlass where the batteries are stored, I also store a separate 18 amp/220 volts charger. The 1500 watt (pure sinus) inverter delivers the current to this charger. With this arrangement the current is transported from the inverter to the charger of the windlass batteries in 220 volts, and the cables are accordingly the standard for transporting 10 amp (in 220 volts, 1,5 mm2)
__________________
Use your head, ram the wall till it falls.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Installing a New Battery Bank Sue & Larry Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 09-26-2002 09:00 PM
Boat Battery Power East Penn Manufr. Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 01-18-1999 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:44 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.