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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
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  #41  
Old 05-07-2008
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Knothead, thanks for the good post, it enriches everyone's expereinces here to have guys like you around, thanks.

I don't have time to make one, but do you know where one can find the shroud breaking loads tables according to thickness, that shows both metric and imperial?

It would be good to add it here, if someone cares to do it. Thanks

Alex
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  #42  
Old 05-07-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giulietta View Post
Knothead, thanks for the good post, it enriches everyone's expereinces here to have guys like you around, thanks.

I don't have time to make one, but do you know where one can find the shroud breaking loads tables according to thickness, that shows both metric and imperial?

It would be good to add it here, if someone cares to do it. Thanks

Alex
Alex, most of the catalogs that list Stainless wire used to have the breaking strengths listed for the various types. I seem to remember they sometimes listed safe working loads too. I'll look around and see if I can't find something.

Then I'll try to figure out how to scan it and then attach it. I'm not really adept at that stuff though.
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  #43  
Old 05-08-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soul searcher View Post

I tuned my rig for twenty knots I figured that was good middle ground for us.
And did not exceed 15% on the lowers 20% on the caps.

How does one go about optimizing the rig for 20Knots?

The rig I would like to set is a twin spreader aft swept 7/8 rig with a set of lowers and intermediates. The mast is a keel stepped affair. The mast is held firmly at deck level but the base can be moved fore-aft.

Currently the boat is getting quickly overpowered in high winds, constantly broaching into the wind in the gusts. It looks like pulling hard on the backstay and cummingham has little effect in flattening the middle part of the sail.

My other problem is that I do not own the boat so, of course, before playing about with other people's stuff one must be extra careful on what one is doing.

From the excellent info found in this thread I conclude that, for this rig setup,
the rake will be determined by the forestay length while the prebent will then be primarily determined my moving the mast base fore-aft keeping the shrouds fairly tight. The uppers should then be set to the 15% loading mentioned earlier.

It would seem then, that to optimise the rig for 20knots, say, one has to play about with the lowers and the intermediates.

Currently reducing the tension on the lowers results in some significant bending of the rig forward when pulling the backstay but the bent is nowhere near the 2% of mast length originally mentioned by Alex. Also the leeward shroud now becomes fairly floppy when sailing at 20knots so I am not sure if we have created another problem with the mast bending to leeward.

By the way, getting a rigger with a loos guage did not help much as apparently all he did was set the tension in the upper shrouds in port and more importantly the broaching problems remained.

regards
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  #44  
Old 05-08-2008
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I think we need to know what type of boat you are sailing to determine if the problems you describe can be associated with the rig or not. Some issues with broaching or helm balance are more associated with the sailplan or a particular hull design and without knowing these things I can't say whether or not it is due to improper adjustment of your rig.
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  #45  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I think we need to know what type of boat you are sailing to determine if the problems you describe can be associated with the rig or not. Some issues with broaching or helm balance are more associated with the sailplan or a particular hull design and without knowing these things I can't say whether or not it is due to improper adjustment of your rig.
The boat is an Elan 37. The sails are Tape Drive racing sails.

Asking around on the WEB indicates that this boat does pretty well on the racing circuits even in high winds.

By the way I am not not necessarily saying that the rig is set up incorrectly. Merely that it is another paramater to check.

regards
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  #46  
Old 05-12-2008
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Gee...this thread has gone all quiet all of a sudden!!!
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  #47  
Old 05-12-2008
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Seems to me that your boat is similar in design to the J-105; in rated area and size, etc. I can't say for sure about the sailing properties because it appears that Elans are primarily sold/sailed in Europe. The listings on Yachtworld only show them available in Europe/UK. That's why I hesitate to say exactly what the problem is.

If I were betting; I'd say that the problem is due to the high SA/D ratio and that the boat is getting overpowered earlier than a heavier boat or a boat with less sail area. The J-105 fleet racers say that they are a beast in heavy wind and they are always cranking the backstay up and spilling the traveler down to keep the boat on it's feet; of course they are pushing it to the limits when racing in their fleet. These tactics also require a crew who is constantly trimming and "rail meat" to help stabilize the boat.

Again; I'd try reefing it down good and then see how the boat performs. You'd be amazed that when you reduce sail area; your leeway reduces, the boat stands up and is able to sail at a more optimal angle of heel and can actually go faster. Your pointing might be a bit reduced depending on sail shape but hey if the boat goes faster and is easier to control you are going to make your destination more quickly and with less struggle.
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  #48  
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Xuraax,

I remeber writting something to you about your boat not long ago SEE HERE (I even was criticized a few posts after, when I know the boat, and know what it can do, from being on them, not from reading in magazines or bla bla bla)...

I had told you once that somethings are just the way they are, and must be changed to act differentely.

What happens is your boat may be dressed like a race boat, smell like a race boat, be among racer boats, even looks like one, and sometimes go fast as one, BUT it is not a race boat.

It's a fast normal production boat that can be sailed faster than normal and faster than the others..(but it's limited to a wind envelope)...

It still behaves like a cruiser, even if you add rake, tension, etc. It's a cruiser...designed as a cruiser, has a cruiser keel, and rudder, and hull shape...

You need to modify the keel, modify the rudder, lighten the boat, and make the boat go thru a racing oriented modification for it to handle the winds in Malta..specially when you start getting above 18kts.

There is little you can do without modifying it... you need to have a fast main traveller system, longer and thiner keel, a longer rudder, a different mast, different genoa controls, etc..

Some things are just like they are...your boat was made to sail faster than the other same type boats, but it has many many limitations...

A Ford Focus will never be a Porsche, even if you put stickers and go fast stripes on the doors..

Now, change the suspensions, brakes, engine etc...It will do as a Porsche, go fast as one..BUT it will never be one...

You need to start investing heavily (I know believe me) to make the boat do what you want..THAT boat will not behave good in strong winds, its a low to moderate wind boat...that boat is just a regular fast cruiser, like a Dehler or a Grans Surprise, it will never be a Sinergia or a B&C...

And to be honest...investing in that boat to bring it to do what you want..might as well buy an old IMS off the Copa del Rey in Spain, and then you'll be driving the Porsche...
Sorry

Last edited by Giulietta; 05-12-2008 at 06:21 PM.
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  #49  
Old 05-12-2008
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Gui-

It isn't even Xuraax's boat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by xuraax View Post
.....

My other problem is that I do not own the boat so, of course, before playing about with other people's stuff one must be extra careful on what one is doing.

...
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  #50  
Old 05-13-2008
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Thanks one and all for the many replies.

However this thread is not about whether this boat is a good racer or not. That may well be the final conclusion when all things are checked and confirmed to be correctly set.

The thread is about adjusting the rig, and recently it had shifted into how to optimise the rig for higher winds. That is surely an interesting argument.

regards
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