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  #91  
Old 04-30-2008
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sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoNewport27 View Post
Reading his blog on the Nada project, Nigel Calder seems to be really interested in new electric propulsion technologies.

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HeeHee,
If you read my blog you'll find out I'm real interested in Raquel Welch. All in all, I'll leave the engine room fantasy to Nigel while I pursue other impossibilities.
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  #92  
Old 04-30-2008
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Anyone attacking our moderators and Sailnet members, especially well established members is out in my book. We have a very good group of members hear with a vast knowledge base and when they state facts I for one tend to listen to them. When Cam, Chuck, Sway and the likes question some one like
SolidNav and engele and get the answers we got, then I smell something fishy.


When I say something fishy I don't mean my Portuguese buddy.
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Hey stuffit "Get a life"
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  #93  
Old 04-30-2008
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Quote:
has it struck anyone else here that the proponents of this nascent technology have been rather thinly spread when it come to revealing of the details on the efficacy of their contraptions?
The systems do work. They are quiet, don't vibrate like a diesel and are much less harsh on the environment. If you do a bit of digging, you'll find quite a few craft that rely on electric engines as their sole means of propulsion. I think that if we took all of the home-built, the experimental and the commercially-built units together, we'd find there are a couple of thousand electric boats out there.

The problem is the energy storage system. I think that the interest in the field is growing quickly, and with the price of oil being what it is, a lot of very good research is going to be done in this are over the next decade.

I'm thinking we'll all be using electric in fifteen years.
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  #94  
Old 05-01-2008
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First let me say that I have absolutely nothing against electric engines. I believe we are on the brink of really advanced battery and charging technology that may make a DIESEL/Electric hybrid quite practical and MORE EFFICIENT than a conventional diesel alone...especially where one can charge dockside all week long. Right now...a lot of this stuff is in the experimental stage as with Calders new boat...and quite expensive, but it should get reasonable over time.

What this "argument" has been about is the practicality of a battery only electric boat with all ENGINE power needs coming from passive sources like solar, wind vanes and regenerative prop power when under sail.
This is what I have called "smoke and mirrors" since we all know the amp hours required to drive a the equivalent of a typical cruising boat engine HP at near hull speed even for an hour or two in flat water, far exceed the capacity of any regenerative system to replace it. Indeed, most of us spend thousands of $$'s on our cruising boats on passive systems that take up every square inch of available space just to generate a couple of hundred amp hours a day for our house bank needs.

Despite the lack of ANY real facts by our recent commercial guest...we do have a wonderful resource on this subject in Nigel Calder who has written a series of three long articles in Boat Builder magazine starting in June of 2007 which goes into far more detail and presents many more facts bout electric options, costs, efficiency etc.. These articles are quite technical in nature so if you're not up for the detail...skip to the third article and take his conclusions on faith! If I may summarize...there is great hope for diesel electric systems but lots more work needs to be done and his new boat is being outfitted to REALLY test the various concepts out.

Couple these articles with his more recent one cited elsewhere on battery technology (that he will also install in his boat) and we will certainly have some good data to discuss in the next year or two. Here's the link to the first Boatbuilder article "hybrid marine power", the others are in subsequent months which can be accessed through the archive tabs.
Professional BoatBuilder - June/July 2007

A happy byproduct of this reading will be the discovery that one has several choices of solid, reliable and established companies with a demonstrated concern for their customers to choose from as this field develops !
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  #95  
Old 05-01-2008
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Just came up with some data from the BENETEAU Lagoon 42 hybrid electric catamaran's user manual that makes it really clear about the power required and cruising distance achievable under battery ONLY power:
(highlighting is mine!)

5) BATTERY AUTONOMY
• Battery autonomy when operating under battery power alone is based on an
average motoring speed of 4.5 knots with less than 5 knots of wind (after all, it is a
sailing catamaran….)
• Battery bank discharge from 100% to 80% will occur in approximately 2 hours.
• If the generator is intentionally prevented (manual cut-off) during its attempt to
automatically start and charge at the 80% level :
Discharge from 80% to 60% will occur in approximately 1 hour.
This means a total of 3 hours of range on the battery banks at 4.5 knots, knowing
that battery damage may begin to occur after the first 2 hours.

• At 60% charge level, the generator will again automatically start to protect the
batteries. If one tries to turn it off, it will remain running until the batteries are
charged. The only way to stop it is to manually cut the genset battery switch in the aft
starboard cabin to force it to stop.
THEREFORE
To maintain optimal battery capacity, it is advised not to navigate under
battery power alone for a distance of more than 9 miles
, which is considered
enough of a margin to get to a harbor and perform docking manoeuvers.
Above the 13,5 mile range : risk of irreversible battery damage.
*****************

There we have it. Now you may ask...how many batteries does it take to go this 9 miles (in flat seas and if the wind isn't blowing and the waves aren't waving)...and you may ask how big they are and what they weigh:

The answer is TWELVE 8D's...a mere 2500 amp hours...a mere 2000 lbs of batteries which you can't drain to the usual 50% capacity due to the heavy current draw.
I am NOT disparaging these boats since they come with a generator (11kw) that kicks in and powers you as long as the DIESEL holds out...It does go to show the folly of the proponents of "passive" recharge systems without a diesel. This boat in 2 hours at 1/2 hull speed in flat water uses 500 amp hours...1000 if you push it to 3 hours!! Your gonna need a fleet of CD's Catalinas just to keep the mother ship juiced up!!

Oh yeah...BTW...top speed with these electric engines running full out is 5.9 knots which is one of the ways they keep the POWER use down compared to the standard diesels which will drive the boat at 8 knots for several hundred miles compared to the electric model.
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  #96  
Old 05-01-2008
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Thanks Cam,
I alluded to the hybrid catamaran's not being ready for prime time, but could not find the posted data to prove it.

Diesel electric as hybrid's are also, IMHO pointless.
Here we have all the weight and expense of 12 8D batteries, cables, a couple tons of acid and lead - and still have a diesel genset (at 11KW that's bigger than some folks diesel) with it's fuel, tankage, hoses etc.

Make sense to anyone?

Nice research and experimentation boat, I'm not paying for that, or maintaining all that.
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Old 05-01-2008
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Chuck..I agree on being not ready for prime time...yet.
But think about the new battery technology that is coming. In the example above, we need 2500 amp hours of capacity to be able to withdraw 500 amp hours safely.
Now suppose there was a a battery that you could drain to ZERO safely and charge back to full 100 capacity in less than an hour and got 1000's of cycles instead of hundreds. You could reduce the size of the battery bank to 500 amp hours...2 8D's...to get the same performance. That is what is on the horizon. The key issue once this type of battery comes to market will be how to charge it efficiently with sufficient DC current to take advantage of its' properties. Calders boat will at least give us some data on this issue as he is planning to go with Odysseys which can be charged at 5-6x their rated capacity but do not have the exceptionally low discharge properties of the next generation battery.
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  #98  
Old 05-01-2008
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Why the personal attack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by denby View Post
When Cam, Chuck, Sway and the likes question some one like SolidNav and engele and get the answers we got, then I smell something fishy.


When I say something fishy I don't mean my Portuguese buddy.
I take that personally. I have not attacked anyone. On top of that, I have attempted to give a perspective that I found lacking.

Sailnet doesn't seam to be a good forum for design discussion. Especially when it falls to this. Be civil. Don't attack me because I disagree with the moderator on whether something is useful.

Groupthink sucks.
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  #99  
Old 05-01-2008
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This was useful

Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
Just came up with some data from the BENETEAU Lagoon 42 hybrid electric catamaran's user manual that makes it really clear about the power required and cruising distance achievable under battery ONLY power:
(highlighting is mine!)

5) BATTERY AUTONOMY
• Battery autonomy when operating under battery power alone is based on an
average motoring speed of 4.5 knots with less than 5 knots of wind (after all, it is a
sailing catamaran….)
• Battery bank discharge from 100% to 80% will occur in approximately 2 hours.
• If the generator is intentionally prevented (manual cut-off) during its attempt to
automatically start and charge at the 80% level :
Discharge from 80% to 60% will occur in approximately 1 hour.
This means a total of 3 hours of range on the battery banks at 4.5 knots, knowing
that battery damage may begin to occur after the first 2 hours.

• At 60% charge level, the generator will again automatically start to protect the
batteries. If one tries to turn it off, it will remain running until the batteries are
charged. The only way to stop it is to manually cut the genset battery switch in the aft
starboard cabin to force it to stop.
THEREFORE
To maintain optimal battery capacity, it is advised not to navigate under
battery power alone for a distance of more than 9 miles
, which is considered
enough of a margin to get to a harbor and perform docking manoeuvers.
Above the 13,5 mile range : risk of irreversible battery damage.
*****************

There we have it. Now you may ask...how many batteries does it take to go this 9 miles (in flat seas and if the wind isn't blowing and the waves aren't waving)...and you may ask how big they are and what they weigh:

The answer is TWELVE 8D's...a mere 2500 amp hours...a mere 2000 lbs of batteries which you can't drain to the usual 50% capacity due to the heavy current draw.
I am NOT disparaging these boats since they come with a generator (11kw) that kicks in and powers you as long as the DIESEL holds out...It does go to show the folly of the proponents of "passive" recharge systems without a diesel. This boat in 2 hours at 1/2 hull speed in flat water uses 500 amp hours...1000 if you push it to 3 hours!! Your gonna need a fleet of CD's Catalinas just to keep the mother ship juiced up!!

Oh yeah...BTW...top speed with these electric engines running full out is 5.9 knots which is one of the ways they keep the POWER use down compared to the standard diesels which will drive the boat at 8 knots for several hundred miles compared to the electric model.


That was actually worth reading, not definitive, but at least not out of tin air.
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  #100  
Old 05-01-2008
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Engele,
You haven't attacked anyone. Solidnav's President has.

It seems to us (me for sure) you are related to solidnav - your only posts here have been to hype it's product. It gets heated because in response to questions regarding technical and practical feasibility you have responded with perception rather than fact.

One quick question, think hard on the answer - are you in any way working for or invovled with the marine industry, and in specific the company or products being sold by solidnav.com.?
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