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  #121  
Old 05-01-2008
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Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
Thanks guys...Jody...I gave you some Luvvvvv...to make up for the pain!! Couldn't give Brak any...he's already my luhv bunny!
Stop it CAM you are embarrassing me ! Thanx
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  #122  
Old 05-01-2008
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Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
Thanks guys...Jody...I gave you some Luvvvvv...to make up for the pain!! Couldn't give Brak any...he's already my luhv bunny!
Cam,

Have you been hanging out with Hawg again?
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Hey stuffit "Get a life"
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Old 05-01-2008
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  #124  
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Den...Is he talking out of school again??!!
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  #125  
Old 05-01-2008
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Den...Is he talking out of school again??!!
Yes he has.
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  #126  
Old 05-02-2008
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Engele,
My apologies - we've been burned before by vendors touting numbers (see the solar stick thread) that do not up to reality who essentially pulled a 'solidnav' on us (got down right abusive when questioned).

You mentioned using this system on a light Cat. I happen to have one, a 2007 Gemini 105Mc, with 1000 on the water a good representative. They are built specifically for cruising couples and are CE open ocean category A rated.

I think it still comes down to the numbers.
On my weight sensitive Gemini it just doesn't work; on a full keel mono where sailing performance and safety would not as deeply be affected it might.

I have a 27hp Westerbeke 30B, delivers at worst 20hp to the prop, a 15x12. Note the prop is exactly the type of high pitch prop touted as best for the system, and on my boat I have a Stillete drive leg that allows me to lift it out of the water for sailing speed; doing so adds 1 knt to my speed.
At 2800 rpm (it maxes at 3600) I get 7.2 knts in flat water, no wind using 1.12 gals per hour. I know this because I keep logs.

Completely ignoring the battery storage issues because batteries available today are simply not comparable (nor close to being) to diesel - let's just say batteries don't matter and go on with the discussion.

20hp = 14.9kw - plain and simple (nice conversion web site so I won't bore you with the math); Unit Converter
For the purist: Horse power (hp) ---> Kilowatts (kW): hp x 0.7457 = kW
Kilowatts (kW) ---> Horse power (hp): kW x 1.341 = hp

Reverse engineering the 8 kw system that is under development indicates it delivers 10.8 hp, at 100% efficiency. I'll bet solidnav claims it's equivelant to 50hp engines simply because the target boats for that system (34-44 ft boats) have diesels n that range.

For the math challenged, that's half my current hp, and at 9600 pounds of weight (light ship, dead empty of all tools, clothes, food, water, fuel etc, not half load) provides at best 1 hp per 1000 pounds - again, half what any modern NA recommends.
We can talk getting off the grid and being oil independent all we want, but I'm not giving up safety so I can feel good about my carbon footprint.

If I take off the 300 pounds of my engine I rounded way up) - remove the empty tanks, hoses, filters etc - I can save 350 pounds (again, light ship, so I'm not adding in fuel weight), then add back the 90 pound 8kw engine, I still - not counting batteries - need some heavy assed copper wires to handle the amp's the motor needs. I'll be nice and say 150 pound of weight total, saving me 200 pounds of weight.

To walk away dead even in weight I have a budget of 200 pounds for batteries, solar, wind and towed generator.

As I've said before, 900 pounds sinks my boat 1 inch. My full up cruising weight (due to design characteristics i.e., shortfalls) limits me to 1800 pounds of food, clothes, diesel, water and people. That's a arbitrary limit because if I say 1800 pounds I can hope for 2200 pounds in real life.

I have two 80w kyocera solar panels that deliver about 40ah a day at 12v, or 10ah at the 48v to drive the motor. If I bumped that up to 10 panels (totally ridiculous, no where to put them) they would weigh in at 500 pounds and give me only 50ah at 48v. I could motor about 1/2 hour on that; so that's no good. I could make bare steerage (1 knt) for longer, but so what?

Hmmm, wind gen - Practical sailor did a nice review on the systems out there today. I'll use their numbers - I can expect 100ah a day at 12v in most areas. going back to ridiculous installations add one on each corner of the boat (4) and I get 100ah at 48v and again get about 1 hour of motor time.
I'm completely ignoring the batteries because I said I would just so I could point on the one glaring deficiency that still remains in this system and it's marketing:

It's still not living up to the marketing claim of powering along through the doldrums now is it?


Solidnav marketing quote:
While diesel sailors are loading their decks with jerry cans and scraping through long doldrum days, you can motor through in silent bliss. As others are limited by range, you are limited only by desire.
end quote.

The desire to have a back up motor powered by diesel?

Sure 4 windgen's dumping directly to the motor could turn the prop and with about 2ah (at 48v) - about 1/50 of it's normal - about the same as a guy with a kayak paddle. Not silent bliss in any reasonable stretch of the imagination.

We are talking doldrums so that wind gen isn't working so well now is it? We know solar, with the boat covered in panels provides half the power, during daylight - and nothing left over to store in batteries. Does it look to be feasible yet?

Kick in the aforementioned 16 lifeline AGM's, being able to use only 1/3 of ah so I don't damage the batteries doesn't really help - I still can't make the power it takes as fast as the motor consumes it. I would in fact need the batteries to store up the power so I could run the motor at all.

Serious guys with calculators take your hands off your keyboards, I know that solar panels wired in series can dump at higher voltages and make my numbers on the low side etc. I chose to keep it simple and not break out my table of formula's and calculators.

wow, I really went on for a bit didn't I ? I hate false marketing of false hopes.

Someone please prove me wrong !
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  #127  
Old 05-02-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Engele,
My apologies - we've been burned before by vendors touting numbers (see the solar stick thread) that do not up to reality who essentially pulled a 'solidnav' on us (got down right abusive when questioned).

You mentioned using this system on a light Cat. I happen to have one, a 2007 Gemini 105Mc, with 1000 on the water a good representative. They are built specifically for cruising couples and are CE open ocean category A rated.

I think it still comes down to the numbers.
On my weight sensitive Gemini it just doesn't work; on a full keel mono where sailing performance and safety would not as deeply be affected it might.

I have a 27hp Westerbeke 30B, delivers at worst 20hp to the prop, a 15x12. Note the prop is exactly the type of high pitch prop touted as best for the system, and on my boat I have a Stillete drive leg that allows me to lift it out of the water for sailing speed; doing so adds 1 knt to my speed.
At 2800 rpm (it maxes at 3600) I get 7.2 knts in flat water, no wind using 1.12 gals per hour. I know this because I keep logs.

Completely ignoring the battery storage issues because batteries available today are simply not comparable (nor close to being) to diesel - let's just say batteries don't matter and go on with the discussion.

20hp = 14.9kw - plain and simple (nice conversion web site so I won't bore you with the math); Unit Converter
For the purist: Horse power (hp) ---> Kilowatts (kW): hp x 0.7457 = kW
Kilowatts (kW) ---> Horse power (hp): kW x 1.341 = hp

Reverse engineering the 8 kw system that is under development indicates it delivers 10.8 hp, at 100% efficiency. I'll bet solidnav claims it's equivelant to 50hp engines simply because the target boats for that system (34-44 ft boats) have diesels n that range.

For the math challenged, that's half my current hp, and at 9600 pounds of weight (light ship, dead empty of all tools, clothes, food, water, fuel etc, not half load) provides at best 1 hp per 1000 pounds - again, half what any modern NA recommends.
We can talk getting off the grid and being oil independent all we want, but I'm not giving up safety so I can feel good about my carbon footprint.

If I take off the 300 pounds of my engine I rounded way up) - remove the empty tanks, hoses, filters etc - I can save 350 pounds (again, light ship, so I'm not adding in fuel weight), then add back the 90 pound 8kw engine, I still - not counting batteries - need some heavy assed copper wires to handle the amp's the motor needs. I'll be nice and say 150 pound of weight total, saving me 200 pounds of weight.

To walk away dead even in weight I have a budget of 200 pounds for batteries, solar, wind and towed generator.

As I've said before, 900 pounds sinks my boat 1 inch. My full up cruising weight (due to design characteristics i.e., shortfalls) limits me to 1800 pounds of food, clothes, diesel, water and people. That's a arbitrary limit because if I say 1800 pounds I can hope for 2200 pounds in real life.

I have two 80w kyocera solar panels that deliver about 40ah a day at 12v, or 10ah at the 48v to drive the motor. If I bumped that up to 10 panels (totally ridiculous, no where to put them) they would weigh in at 500 pounds and give me only 50ah at 48v. I could motor about 1/2 hour on that; so that's no good. I could make bare steerage (1 knt) for longer, but so what?

Hmmm, wind gen - Practical sailor did a nice review on the systems out there today. I'll use their numbers - I can expect 100ah a day at 12v in most areas. going back to ridiculous installations add one on each corner of the boat (4) and I get 100ah at 48v and again get about 1 hour of motor time.
I'm completely ignoring the batteries because I said I would just so I could point on the one glaring deficiency that still remains in this system and it's marketing:

It's still not living up to the marketing claim of powering along through the doldrums now is it?


Solidnav marketing quote:
While diesel sailors are loading their decks with jerry cans and scraping through long doldrum days, you can motor through in silent bliss. As others are limited by range, you are limited only by desire.
end quote.

The desire to have a back up motor powered by diesel?

Sure 4 windgen's dumping directly to the motor could turn the prop and with about 2ah (at 48v) - about 1/50 of it's normal - about the same as a guy with a kayak paddle. Not silent bliss in any reasonable stretch of the imagination.

We are talking doldrums so that wind gen isn't working so well now is it? We know solar, with the boat covered in panels provides half the power, during daylight - and nothing left over to store in batteries. Does it look to be feasible yet?

Kick in the aforementioned 16 lifeline AGM's, being able to use only 1/3 of ah so I don't damage the batteries doesn't really help - I still can't make the power it takes as fast as the motor consumes it. I would in fact need the batteries to store up the power so I could run the motor at all.

Serious guys with calculators take your hands off your keyboards, I know that solar panels wired in series can dump at higher voltages and make my numbers on the low side etc. I chose to keep it simple and not break out my table of formula's and calculators.

wow, I really went on for a bit didn't I ? I hate false marketing of false hopes.

Someone please prove me wrong !
That would make for one awesome gemini!!!! Do you take amex?
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  #128  
Old 05-02-2008
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regarding the weight issue you should have a look at some more untraditional consepts. If you have a look at the folowing sites you will see that a 7kW motor dont need to be more than 1500 grams. costing 150 dollars. Add speedcontroller and all you need is batteries.

regarding the speedcontroller you may use this one from castleCreations. It is rated at 240 amps 50 Volts. I belive you can get it for less than 400 dollars.

This might be a nice option for those of us using the boat for daysailing, not needing anything but harbour navigation.

Sorry, couldnt post links, look up "hxt outrunner", and "castle creations hydra 240"

Lars
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  #129  
Old 05-02-2008
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HTX

and

CastleCreations

Neither of which I could see meeting the requirements of powering the likes of 18-25 HP - even for Daysailing.

One thing to note when thinking of these issues is the max RPMs, you can generate to move the prop. When cruising the RPMs are fairly a constant but in docking maneuvers - the amount of thrust needed - and thus electric required - are substantially variant. It goes without saying that for a fossil fuel or hybrid - that there is a constant that you can draw from. As batteries deplete so does the actual amount of energy draw one can obtain from using such. So, in matters of docking - a hard blow, swift currents, etc... One really takes the risk s of a decremental power source to provide that umpff when you need it....
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  #130  
Old 05-02-2008
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I am not saying that electric is superior in any way, just pointing out that what most "marine dealers" are supplying is not quite up to todays standards.

btw, I belive that 7kw, will be sufficient for my 20 feet keelboat, wich at the time is powerd by an outboard. moving to electric power will allow me to move more weight to the centre of the boat giving it better balance and keeping the prop in the water even in rougf weather

Lars
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