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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
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  #21  
Old 05-01-2008
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CD - I agree with you. Friction is an issue. I moved my main halyard back to the cockpit. It meant that I had to put a block on the head of the sail to double the purchase. And I only needed to add one roller bearing block and a clutch to do it.
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  #22  
Old 05-01-2008
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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Dad's boat (a Tayana 42) is a BEAR to raise the sails from the cockpit -
Ahhhhhh

The price to pay for the "heavy well built blue water best boats to cross the World type of deal so much loved here at sailnet" shows up pretty well in these little insignificant things doesn't it CD???

I bet your "no good to sail because its not blue water and no one here ion sailnet thinks its classic to own a catalina" the halyards are easier, aren't they??

point for me
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  #23  
Old 05-01-2008
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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
....By doing that, you seriously increase the friction, etc on those halyards. Dad's boat (a Tayana 42) is a BEAR to raise the sails from the cockpit - usually putting one person at the mast to help pull the line down while someone winches in at the cockpit. CD
We have our lines led aft.. and almost always sail doublehanded. If the halyard exits the mast a reasonable height above the mast the method that CD mentions is VERY workable. It is SOP for us.

I "jump" the halyard at the mast while she tails in the cockpit. The main goes up 80-90% distance very quickly and easily. By now she's caught up, and tails the winch. I then sweat the last couple of feet up and then go help put the final tension on.

A club member in his 70s was lamenting how exhausting it was to get the main up on his 36 footer, and I explained this technique and he is amazed at how much easier it is now. He has been inordinately grateful for the tip!

IMO this is even easier than trying to do it all at the mast.
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  #24  
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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
We have our lines led aft.. and almost always sail doublehanded. If the halyard exits the mast a reasonable height above the mast the method that CD mentions is VERY workable. It is SOP for us.

I "jump" the halyard at the mast while she tails in the cockpit. The main goes up 80-90% distance very quickly and easily. By now she's caught up, and tails the winch. I then sweat the last couple of feet up and then go help put the final tension on.

A club member in his 70s was lamenting how exhausting it was to get the main up on his 36 footer, and I explained this technique and he is amazed at how much easier it is now. He has been inordinately grateful for the tip!

IMO this is even easier than trying to do it all at the mast.
Unless your lines are Dyneema like mine

My sail glides pretty easy....altough Joel didn't have arms for it...
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  #25  
Old 05-01-2008
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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Yeah, no problem with that plan... but you really do need to be sure that the deck where you'll mount the winches is beefy enough to handle the torsional stresses that come from grinding a loaded winch.

...
Even more so you need to ensure that the location where you will install your turning blocks at the base of the mast can take the load of these blocks, which will be 150% or so of the lofod on the winches themselves, and vertical, not horizontal. If you plan to install them on the cabin top you need to consider some engineering inside to pass their load from the cabin top to the keel, otherwise you may hog the deck. My CS had a hefty SS rood for that purpose.
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  #26  
Old 05-01-2008
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My CS had a hefty SS rood for that purpose.
And I remeber seeing it....
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  #27  
Old 05-01-2008
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Do not leave a winch on the mast under any circumstance. I would say that there are very good reasons not to leave the winches on the mast. I can't tell you how many times in my sailing carreer that I have sailed on boats that had winches on the mast and on which a jib sheet or leechline got caught on the winch preventing the jib from tacking. In light air its inconventient. In heavy air I have experienced knockdowns and having the leech pulled out of the sail. Winches on the mast are not so terrible with a big crew who can winch and ease while someone horses the fouled jib free of the winch on the mast, but single-handed I consider them a real hazzard.

The key to reducing friction is to use high quality roller bearing blocks. I found that Garhauer offered the best deal on heavy duty low friction blocks. I have all my halyards lead aft and the friction is minimal.

BTW if you are going to run the lines aft so that you can single-hand, I would suggest that you learn to coil lines with a figure 8 so that they don't foul when you release them. The easiest-fastest way is to coil them with a figure 8 is with one side over the winch or winch handle.

Jeff

Last edited by Jeff_H; 05-01-2008 at 04:43 PM.
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  #28  
Old 05-01-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Do not leave a winch on the mast under any circumstance. I would say that there are very good reasons not to leave the winches on the mast. I can't tell you how many times in my sailing carreer that I have sailed on boats that had winches on the mast and on which a jib sheet or leechline got caught on the winch preventing the jib from tacking. In light air its inconventient. In heavy air I have experienced knockdowns and having the leech pulled out of the sail. Winches on the mast are not so terrible with a big crew who can winch and ease while someone horses the fouled jib free of the winch on the mast, but single-handed I consider them a real hazzard.

The key to reducing friction is to use high quality roller bearing blocks. I found that Garhauer offered the best deal on heavy duty low friction blocks. I have all my halyards lead aft and the friction is minimal.

BTW if you are going to run the lines aft so that you can single-hand, I would suggest that you learn to coil lines with a figure 8 so that they don't foul when you release them. The easiest-fastest way is to coil them with a figure 8 is with one side over the winch or winch handle.

Jeff
Hi Jeff,

I am not following you. Are you saying not to put winches on the mast? TO the best of my knowledge, most if not all blue water boats have winches on the mast for the very reasons I have mentioned.

I am not doubting what you have seen. I concede you have may have more experience in the matter than me. But I have never seen it, and many or most of these boats have records of circling the world many times.

I took the liberty of printing off a few that came to mind:

Oyster:



Valiant:



Hylas:



Taswell:



ALl of these carry their winches on the mast, or have some winches on the mast.

And for the record, I have lifted the main on the V-42 from the bag. I guarantee you it takes a serious grown man to lift it (while in the bag). You put it on the main halyard, add a couple of sheaves, and I don't care what make or model of blocks you are using (even made by NASA), that thing is flat tough to get up.

And if you have to go forward to the mast to raise it anyways, what is the point of having it led aft??? For a quick drop?? Even dropping a large main requires someone at the mast or that thing goes everywhere in a blow and rolling sea.

This may not be an issue on his boat because it is a smaller boat and may be a lighter cloth. I am simply giving my experience in the matter as I end up having to (and have had to on many differnt boats) haul the main.

Did I just missunderstand you?

- CD
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  #29  
Old 05-01-2008
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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post

In the end, there is not a good or bad place for some things, just what is "BEST" for you the end user on "YOUR" boat, not mine!


I do not believe there is a right or wrong answer. Just that it had better make sense to you the end user.

marty

I agree completely. There are a lot of factors that enter into deciding these type of things. Not the least of which is what kind of boats you have sailed in your life, how old your boat is, whether or not you can usually count on a second person, how much money you can spend, etc.
I'm just transferring my own prejudices. I have a boat whose halyards, single line reefing and lazy-jack controls are at the mast. I have sailed and cruised her extensively. But I have sailed a lot more miles on other people's boats and most of them had their halyards led aft.

I guess I just like my own boat better than everybody else's so I espouse my own views.

Having had to do it alone so often in the course of my business, I can tell you that it is a lot less work to put a sail up that luff groove if you are working from the mast. By taking one turn around the winch with the halyard, you are able to walk forward to feed the sail on while hoisting.
It's not impossible to do it from the cockpit, but it's usually a lot harder.
And if you have ever tried to hoist a dingy onto the fore-deck alone you will agree that having a self tailing winch to work with in that vicinity would come in handy.
To be honest, my sheets do foul on the occasional tack, but they aren't catching the winches. They foul on the diamond plates that are installed on my upper shrouds as part of the mast lowering system. I only seem to have a problem when I am careless and don't back-wind the genoa just long enough. I'm thinking about leathering the area.
Anyway, I didn't mean to imply that there was only one way to layout a deck or that my way was better than anyone else's. Long as it works and you can go sailing.
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  #30  
Old 05-02-2008
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I must have missed where the OP said that he had mainsail with a bolt rope going into the luff track. If that is the case, you are right that he needs to be at the mast for the drop. Raising he can use a feeder and work from the aft end of the cockpit.

As to frictional losses, yes there is a small amount of frictional loss to rerouting the high load control lines back to the cockpit, but in boats of the size that I routinely sail, 45 feet and under, employing high quality roller bearing blocks, the frictional loss is negligable as compared to the overall loads and frictional loads of the luff attachment that need to be overcome to simply hoist the sail.

As to CD's question, Yes I know that there are world cruisers that have winches on their mast. Having had to wrestle jibs and jibsheets off a winch that hung up mid-tack and watched the leechline get pulled right out a sail taking a piece of the leech with it. IMHO I think that winches and cleats on the mast represent a major hazzard on a boat that is sailed short- or single- handed for the reasons mentioned above.

In point of illustration, I also know that boats have been single-handed around the world with gaff rigs but doesn't make that a good idea either. Offshore you can't risk tearing the leech out of a sail when you are short of crew, and the typical way of getting out of being hove to, really puts the leech at risk if there is a winch or cleats on the mast.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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