Standing Rigging Hardware

[SEMIJim]

I'm trying to learn a bit about hardware for standing rigging. When we go to replace our standing rigging, I want to choose hardware based on research into what's the best for our needs.

This is an expansion of my original questions about Navtec Turnbuckles. Both of the only two respondents had nothing but bad things to say about Navtec C500 turnbuckles, and they seem to be up to twice as expensive as other makers' products, so mine will be replaced with something else when the time comes.

The question is: What? In that other thread, knothead asserted that "all turnbuckles are essentially the same," looked like to me. But a lifetime of experience is telling me that's probably unlikely. So: Anybody have any input as to what's the good, better and best standing rigging hardware available?

Looking at Hi-Mod (mentioned by SVCarolena in the other thread) I observe here: Hi-Mod Fittings, that there are wire terminals only, and, for Alexander-Roberts (suggested by knothead): Alexander-Roberts, the same thing. (Tho the latter also lists t-bolt toggles.) So, with some of these manufacturers, are you to get the swage fittings from one source, perhaps the t-bolt toggles from another, and the turnbuckle body from a third? That seems kind of... odd.

TIA,
Jim

[SVCarolena]

Hyan, the makers of the Hi-Mod line, also offer standard swage fittings. On my boat, I'm replacing the uppers with swage fittings and the lowers with Hi-Mod. Because there is less chance for water intrusion on the uppers, I feel this will work fine. Hyan doesn't make the fittings I need for my lower shrouds, but I believe CS Johnson does. My plan is to order the wire slightly longer than necessary with the upper fittings installed, then I'll trim to fit at the boat and install the Hi-Mod lowers. The nice thing about the Hi-Mod is that they are reusable the next time I replace the wire. I imagine that you will be fine purchasing turnbuckles from any of the major sources. I wouldnt' be surprised if many of them are made in the same factory.

[knothead]

Originally Posted by SEMIJim

I'm trying to learn a bit about hardware for standing rigging. When we go to replace our standing rigging, I want to choose hardware based on research into what's the best for our needs.

This is an expansion of my original questions about Navtec Turnbuckles. Both of the only two respondents had nothing but bad things to say about Navtec C500 turnbuckles, and they seem to be up to twice as expensive as other makers' products, so mine will be replaced with something else when the time comes.
Looking at Hi-Mod (mentioned by SVCarolena in the other thread) I observe here: Hi-Mod Fittings, that there are wire terminals only, and, for Alexander-Roberts (suggested by knothead): Alexander-Roberts, the same thing. (Tho the latter also lists t-bolt toggles.) So, with some of these manufacturers, are you to get the swage fittings from one source, perhaps the t-bolt toggles from another, and the turnbuckle body from a third? That seems kind of... odd.

The question is: What? In that other thread, knothead asserted that "all turnbuckles are essentially the same," looked like to me. But a lifetime of experience is telling me that's probably unlikely. So: Anybody have any input as to what's the good, better and best standing rigging hardware available?
TIA,
Jim

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. What I was trying to say is that I recommend using a Bronze Open-Body Turnbuckle as opposed to a Stainless or even Bronze Closed-Body Turnbuckle. There are many companies that produce these and my point was that I am not aware of many that are obviously inferior compared with the others.

One reason that I have mostly used Alexander-Roberts hardware is because of the fact that they use a welded t-bolt instead of the type one often sees where the stud is threaded into a slug which holds the toggle. I have see this type fail often because of corrosion around the threads.

I also like the type of t-bolt that is essentially a threaded eye with a pressed pin.

I have stated my opinion on using mechanical fitting on the bottoms as opposed to swage fitting lots of times before. But just to reiterate, in my opinion it is not really any better unless you don't want to use the services of a rigger. But, having said that, I really like it when my customers have their heart set on them. They are more expensive, there is more labor involved in installing them and when I have to replace the wire in a furler, it makes the job easier.

Just my opinion.

[brak]

Before you consider anything from Alexander-Roberts you may want to read my story posted here on Sailnet a while ago: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-m...-forestay.html

It appears that they import their fittings from Asia (ahem), have little or no quality control and, when after supplying faulty and dangerous fittings to the market, do not issue an appropriate recall. They also provide no support and admit no responsibility after their junk fails.

I currently still have some of their hardware on my boat and a box of Hayn turnbuckles sitting in a locker, that I plan to replace theirs with. I would strongly advise against buying anything from them based on my past experience.

[knothead]

Originally Posted by brak

Before you consider anything from Alexander-Roberts you may want to read my story posted here on Sailnet a while ago: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-m...-forestay.html

It appears that they import their fittings from Asia (ahem), have little or no quality control and, when after supplying faulty and dangerous fittings to the market, do not issue an appropriate recall. They also provide no support and admit no responsibility after their junk fails.

I currently still have some of their hardware on my boat and a box of Hayn turnbuckles sitting in a locker, that I plan to replace theirs with. I would strongly advise against buying anything from them based on my past experience.

At the risk of sounding like I am defending any particular company, (I Am Not), I just want to say that in over 12 years that I have been using AR parts I have never had an incident like that.

I believe that this incident was a fluke.
Lots, if not most long term companies have had lapses in quality control on occasion. Navtec, all the auto companies, Sta-lok etc.

For the record, I was told by the owner of the company that the parts are produced in New Zealand.

I wish that I could have seen a photo of the entire furling installation. There are other reasons that fittings fail. One of the biggest is the lack of articulation.

Sorry you had such a bad experience. If it were my company, I would have done whatever you wanted to make you feel like you didn't get screwed. Even if it meant replacing the entire rig again. I certainly would have replaced any bent extrusions on the furler.

[SEMIJim]

Brak,

Thanks for the follow-up. Yup, it was that post of yours that's causing me to be so careful about our choices.

knothead,

True enough, but still the story will tend to make one leery.

Thanks for expanding on your original comments (from the other thread). I think I understood you correctly the first time, I'm just stubbornly persisting in the belief there must be something that differentiates these hardware manufacturers from one another .

Thanks for the additional detail. I understand you're recommending I go with crome-plated bronze fittings, as opposed to stainless, and chrome-plated bronze open-body turnbuckles. Also noting the t-bolt recommendations. Thanks!

Jim

[brak]

Originally Posted by knothead

I wish that I could have seen a photo of the entire furling installation. There are other reasons that fittings fail. One of the biggest is the lack of articulation.

The fitting failed because there was foreign matter inside the bronze fork body. You can see it in the pictures in the first message in the other thread (and i still have a fork here so if you are interested - I can make better pictures of it). Since the fork was chromed there was no way to see it until the fork broke (and it broke on the very first day the boat was on the water and with the sail NOT being up). I spoke to Alexander-Roberts owner and he did not strike me as someone who takes responsibility for faulty hardware either. He admitted that they had a bad batch of forks (same size as mine and another one), and there was one more person who had a fork break (but not under way, fortunately for him). He offered no help beyond replacing the actual fork. He also told me that they did not issue a recall (but tried to take those forks back quietly). His main concern was to make sure I am not planning to sue and as soon as he figured out I am not - he pretty much lost interest. So, that is my impression of these guys.

[SEMIJim]

FWIW: I talked to a couple of other boat owners at a Skipper's Meeting (for the 2008 racing season) that was held this evening. They both recommended solid stainless fittings for my shrouds. What I know about metallurgy, much less sailboat standing rigging fittings, you could fit on the point of a pin with room left over, but my gut is telling me solid stainless seems more sound than another material plated with chrome. I'm also somewhat persuaded by Tartan34C's comments in brak's "Broken forestay" thread.

Currently I'm leaning toward Hayn or, if Hayn doesn't make everything I need, perhaps Johnson? Or a combination of the two.

I'm surprised there haven't been more Sailnet regulars chiming-in on this one, for all the discussion I've seen on standing rigging in the past.

Jim

[artbyjody]

Jim.

I think for the most part those fitting we just replace with whatever the local chandelier supply. At least that is my attitude on it...I know on mine that since rebedding a chainplate there are several if not all I want to replace... and most likely when I do replace them it will be where I can get it local...

Interesting sidebit (hijack)... when I rebedded the starboard side chainplate - naturally I had tied all of the shroud cables off to the lifelines. We had a day or two of decent wind and when I came back to my boat the mast looked like it was pretzel and leaning ridiculously toward the port side... yikes.. re-attached in a hurry and was glad that I had (I have no idea what to call them) separate tensionors for the lower shrouds - on the winch to pull the mast back to center and in went the pins..)...

[knothead]

Originally Posted by SEMIJim

FWIW: I talked to a couple of other boat owners at a Skipper's Meeting (for the 2008 racing season) that was held this evening. They both recommended solid stainless fittings for my shrouds. What I know about metallurgy, much less sailboat standing rigging fittings, you could fit on the point of a pin with room left over, but my gut is telling me solid stainless seems more sound than another material plated with chrome. I'm also somewhat persuaded by Tartan34C's comments in brak's "Broken forestay" thread.

Currently I'm leaning toward Hayn or, if Hayn doesn't make everything I need, perhaps Johnson? Or a combination of the two.

I'm surprised there haven't been more Sailnet regulars chiming-in on this one, for all the discussion I've seen on standing rigging in the past.

Jim

The vast majority of turnbuckles that I see are a combination of bronze and stainless.
The type I recommend usually have a stainless right hand threaded stud swaged onto the wire which threads into a chromed bronze turnbuckle body. There is usually, (especially on a headstay), a stainless left hand threaded t-bolt with a stainless toggle on the bottom for articulation.
I do see the type of rigid bronze fork that Brak was using come in from time to time but if I am asked to replace the rigging complete with turnbuckles I will use the configuration I described above.

Even the Navtec turnbuckles, which I can't say anything good about are a combination of stainless and bronze. They are just reversed. The stud in the middle is bronze and the rest is stainless.

If you want to go with a all stainless turnbuckle, they are available. I just don't recommend it.
C. Sherman Johnson makes a closed body stainless turnbuckle and there are others.
I think there are even a couple of open body stainless turnbuckles made. Maybe Hasselfor.(check the spelling)