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  #11  
Old 06-01-2008
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Brak..

Any time you wire a mast ALWAYS put a drip loop in the wires. If it's at the top of the mast simply run the wire bellow the actual hole and then back up to it. If it's deck stepped you can also do an additional internal drip loop at the mast base with the entire bundle of wires. I usually just nick (as in very small nick) the jacket at the bottom of the drip loop so any water in there can weep out..
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Old 06-01-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halekai36 View Post
Any time you wire a mast ALWAYS put a drip loop in the wires. If it's at the top of the mast simply run the wire bellow the actual hole and then back up to it. If it's deck stepped you can also do an additional internal drip loop at the mast base with the entire bundle of wires. I usually just nick (as in very small nick) the jacket at the bottom of the drip loop so any water in there can weep out..
Well, when my mast comes down next time (may be August, I need to fix the halyard) I'll make sure this wire gets re-wired properly. As it stands, this was a "professional" job by Chesapeake rigging. I am sure there is more crap like that they did, I am just finding out.
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OKAY! I agree tinned wire is an excelent way to prevent corrosion.
"Pratical" is (in this case) another situation. For many years I work for a coal mining company. The wiring for the instrumentation I was responsible for was often flooded with highly acidic water. ( It was akin to sulfuric acid) To combat this nemisis I used nonconductive, self-vulcanizing tape to insulate both solder and cripmed connections. (The wire sizes ranged from 22 gauge to 12 gauge.) Nothing is 100% fool proof, but but my equipment had an availability of 99.97% - 24/7.
Guess what I use on my boat.

The corosion problem you found on your boat may be long term capilltary action. It could be the wire insulation is okay , but the micro spacing between the wire strands has allowed the enviorement to move into the cable, then inch it's way through the length of the cable.

[Also, the PS issue should be addressed to PS.]

Last edited by Duke 7184; 06-01-2008 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 06-01-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke 7184 View Post

The corosion problem you found on your boat may be long term capilltary action. It could be the wire insulation is okay , but the micro spacing between the wire strands has allowed the enviorement to move into the cable, then inch it's way through the length of the cable.
I am in TOTAL agreement that a GOOD QUALITY wire can be heat shrink wrapped and the wire will be fine in 20+ years! We do NOT differ on this point!

During this recent wiring project I removed a total of five runs of wire from the same exact DRY conduit that was NO WHERE near the bilge. Three of these runs were original, factory installed, duplex 14ga un-tinned wire that were 29 years old. Two of them were cheap DIY installed stuff, one was brown lamp cord and one looked like speaker wire with a transparent vinyl type insulation/jacket. They were somewhere between 10-15 years old and not the 29 year age of the original factory wiring. The reason for this project was a WIRING FAILURE in the DIY installed stuff..

It's very important to note that ALL five of these wires were in the exact same dry conduit and all used the same type of open, non-heat shrink, crimp connectors.

The three 29 year old factory wire runs had black oxidation that clearly traveled or "wicked" about 4" in from the ends. This is to be expected with open style crimps on bare copper so no surprise there at all. The other two wires, that had significantly LESS time on the boat, in the order of 10+ less years of service, were oxidized the entire length 15+/- feet and not just 4" in from the ends!

These wires were the "lamp cord" and the "speaker wire" grade wires. Remember, same terminations, same locations just different quality wires and wire insulation. It does not get any clearer than that to show that the jacket of the wire allowed oxidation through the insulation! It did NOT wick the entire 15 feet or the other three older wires, with the SAME crimps, would have looked worse being 10+ years older and they did not. The copper inside the better quality factory wiring was perfect after you stripped back about 4" of insulation.

If oxygen could permeate miles upon miles of radiant tube, for in-floor heating, causing millions of dollars in system failures, class action law suits and and major monetary damage it can permeate the insulation of cheap wire..







Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke 7184 View Post
[Also, the PS issue should be addressed to PS.]
It was!
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 06-01-2008 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 06-01-2008
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BTW, one issue with tinned wire is availability of plain duplex tinned marine wire. Most marine/tinned wire out there is jacketed primary (a few separate wires in a single common cover). It is great and I use it wherever I can and wherever appropriate (lockers, bilges, outside runs, engine compartment etc) In my last project rewiring the boat I had a number of locations where flat "ribbon" duplex was needed due to clearance limit (basically squeezed between liner and something else etc). There is one size of this wire that Anchor makes (16 gauge I believe) and I could only find it mail order in a very few stores. So, it isn't particularly surprising that when faced with adding a run of wire somewhere where jacketed marine wire does not fit or simply an overkill, owner would use home-depot quality wiring.
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Old 06-01-2008
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Originally Posted by brak View Post
So, it isn't particularly surprising that when faced with adding a run of wire somewhere where jacketed marine wire does not fit or simply an overkill, owner would use home-depot quality wiring.
Actually, I could have fit perhaps three more 12-2 duplex wires in this conduit with ease. In fact I pulled three additional chasers down it when I pulled the new wire for future use.


Some people are just cheap and choose to use cheap and potentially dangerous products. There was no excuse for using this wire and the conduit did not limit the size wire. There was also no excuse for using wire nuts and poor soldering techniques that led to the failure..
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  #17  
Old 06-02-2008
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Almost all of the marine duplex and triplex wire I've seen is FLAT jacketed... none of it has been round. The only wires that I've found are round are either instrument wiring (5-8 wires) or shielded wiring (2-8 wires).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Almost all of the marine duplex and triplex wire I've seen is FLAT jacketed... none of it has been round. The only wires that I've found are round are either instrument wiring (5-8 wires) or shielded wiring (2-8 wires).
You can special order it! I have a 100' roll of 14-2 round sitting in my barn! I use it when it needs to pass through a deck gland and the jacket needs to be round for a water tight seal!
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  #19  
Old 06-02-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halekai36 View Post
Hi All,

Just yesterday it was like Christmas. I went to the mailbox and both Professional Boat Builder and Practical Sailor were in there! Which do I read first....

Anyway, to my point. After reading PS cover to cover I flip the back cover and there in bold print I see the headline "Tinned Wire Myth Busted".

Now I know as well as anyone that the ABYC does not specify the use of tinned wire, heck I own a copy of ABYC E-11, but to totally diminish tinned wires value in a boat is just plain foolish, and short sided, on PS's part.

Sure, there were many truthful points made but the entire gist of the article was to portray un-tinned wire as suitable for marine use because it "has been used for years" and "provides more-than-adequate service life", which they then never defined. Of course they did end that sentence with "in most cases" to cover their butts....

Point #1
Quote PS:

"By using heat-shrink crimp terminals or adhesive-lined heat-shrink tubing on conventional crimp connectors, you can effectively seal the ends of all the wire on your boat."

While I totally agree with PS's points about using heat shrink crimp terminals, I disagree that using an adhesive lined heat shrink over a NON heat shrink "conventional" crimp connection is a suitable alternative to an actual heat shrink connector.

In my experience, it is VERY, VERY difficult to find a piece of adhesive lined heat shrink that will:

1) Fit over the existing nylon insulation on the non-heat shrink connector as this is a rather LARGE diameter and becomes more than a 3:1 shrink

2) Shrinks enough, from the diameter needed to fit over the insulated crimp connector, to make a proper seal around the wires OD and to properly seal the terminal end.

Can it be done? Sure, but you will WASTE many pieces of expensive adhesive lined heat shrink
and crimp connectors while attempting to make your "hermetically sealed" connection, yet failing to make a solid watertight seal that is easily replicated.

It is much easier, repeatable and reliable to just use crimp terminals designed and sold with the heat shrink already built in to begin with.

Point #2
Quote PS:

"Without exposure to moisture, or salt air, the un-tinned wire will last as long as the tinned"

I can't even begin to agree with any part of this statement without them giving further clarification. This statement as written is totally and 100% misleading! Why? First off all wire jacketing is NOT the same. Many boat builders used cheaply jacketed wire, including but not limited to, "lamp cord".

The photo bellow was taken just last night! I went to re-wire my shower sump and found some older DIY wiring that did not meet my standards. Long story short, I am now doing a major portion of my re-wire, that I had planned for this winter, now.

This photo illustrates why the PS statement above is, to say the least, MISLEADING and dishonest. I cut this piece of wire from the CENTER of a 15 foot run. The wire had been encased inside a glassed in PVC conduit and was NOT in the bilge but rather half way up the top sides and out of direct contact with moisture. As you can clearly see from the photo this wire is severely oxidized and has turned black in the MIDDLE, or about 7 feet in from the end, of the wire! This is ONLY due to one thing, moisture, oxygen & humidity transmittance through the JACKET of the wire..! The flash and the stripping action of the wire actually made it look more like copper than it looks in real life.

Point #3
Quote PS:
"You'll need to strip back the wiring until you find clean, pink copper. Usually this requires stripping back no more than an inch or so if insulation."


LOOK AT THE PICTURE is all I can say...


You can't always believe what you read just because you read it in PS. Sometimes these authors don't fully investigate their own statements..


Cheap wire will oxidize and corrode THROUGH THE JACKET and MANY builders used cheap wire before the ABYC issued jacket ratings...! Even these UL/ABYC jacket ratings don't prevent and eliminate internal oxidation of the copper in all cases.

So yes even PS needs to do a BETTER job with their reporting and investigating...! Please read carefully!!!!

P.S. The factory wiring, not the DIY wiring, on my 29 year old Canadian Sailcraft is a bare copper duplex jacketed wire and is nice, clean and pink copper showing no oxidation.

The jacket on this FACTORY wiring, was, and is a top quality bare copper duplex wire that has very good insulation and jacket. What PS said CAN be true but they need to be very careful painting with a broad brush. A case in point would be factory wiring on my old Catalina 30 from the early 80's. This wire was totally oxidized throughout the entire boat! As I stated not all wire is created equal!



Oxidized Wire 7 Feet In From The Ends:

Middle of the Wire:

The Cut:



Hi Hal,

Top begin with, I enjoy your posts. They are well thought out and written up. I appreciate the input.


Now to the thread and my experience after pulling out 44 million miles of wire from a Tayana 42, and comparing that with tinned wire that has been standard on the boats I have owned.

I have found that non-tinned wire seems suitable on the interior of the boat. We have found very little corrosion issues on anything inside. The exceptions, for reasons I am not completely sure of, seem to be any (ANY) joint that was soldered. Anything crimped is fine - many crimps not having any heat shrink at all.

Now, as for the outside, it is corrosion-city. Soldered connections have failed or were about to fail. The water intrusion you have described seems well more than an inch, as they may have proposed. In most cases, by the time you pull off a suitable amount to get to non-corroded wire, the thing is too short and you either have to butt-connect/splice or re-pull. We opted for repulling, each time with tinned. We ONLY used tinned on the outside. I will never use bare copper on the outside. It does not hold up, in my opinion.

As such, my basic conclusions are that non-tinned is ok for down below, tinned only above deck or wet locations. Anything else fails over time. Also, never solder. They ALL seem to fail.

Just my opinions and experience.

- CD
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Old 06-02-2008
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Halekai-

My post was directed towards Brak, who mentioned that it was difficult to find flat duplex wire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by halekai36 View Post
You can special order it! I have a 100' roll of 14-2 round sitting in my barn! I use it when it needs to pass through a deck gland and the jacket needs to be round for a water tight seal!
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