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  #11  
Old 06-12-2008
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I'm sure there is rot in the decking as well, I have a book that covers how to do all the proper repair work. I plan on clearing out the coring around the chainplate and epoxying in there. VooDoo that is most likely the exact problem is water coming through the decking where the chainplate comes through.

Semi Jim-The previous owner has a recent survey that was done on the boat, so he is going to be handing that over as well. As of right now the plan is to just replace the entire Bulkhead, being in Florida we experience A LOT of rain so chances are the rot is extensive if there is a leak, which is most certainly the case. I am fairly certain that whatever money is sunk into this boat will be worth it since it was in fact free. It still has rigging, a recently swapped Yanmar diesel, a tender with a 6 horse outboard, all the electricals in the boat still work, she has just been sitting for a while. That and the price of the learning experience will make up for it. Being 22 years old this is stuff I can take with me for the rest of my life that will be incredibly valuable if I plan on spending a lot of time on the water.

Thanks again for all the input, once the project gets under way it will be heavily documented, so get ready for some serious carnage

Last edited by 82sabre; 06-12-2008 at 12:03 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-12-2008
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FYI, my Pearson 36 has leaky chain plate covers and I knew I had to address that situation soon. As my electrician and I were rewiring the whole boat, we had the occasion to drill a one inch hole thru the "knee" that one of the chainplates was attached to. What we found was a piece of 1/4 inch plywood that was wrapped and tabbed to the hull with 1/4" of fiberglass on all sides.

I will dry out the knee, rebed the chain plate and bed the bolts that hold the chain plate to the knee. I think the plywood is to give the fiberglass a form, not so much for strength.

Attaching the chain plate to a bulkhead would seem to be OK as long as the bulkhead was tabbed, tabbed, tabbed...
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  #13  
Old 06-12-2008
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S/V Easy Skankin' 28 foot Sabre Ketch
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  #14  
Old 06-13-2008
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This is a pic of the bulkhead rot on my boat.



I kept following the rot until I ended up here (actually a little beyond here)



It took a solid 3 years to end up here



Good luck, and have fun. Once you start you'll know how deep the money pit is. It will look like you can fill the pit with 5's, but it will actually take 10's and 20's. In the end it will be worth it, a Sabre 28 is a nice boat.
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  #15  
Old 06-13-2008
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What ever..

What ever you do try to remove the bulkhead in one or two pieces that can be put back together for a template! making a new bulkhead without a template can be a royal PITA!!

I would not personally scarf this project and your on the right track with replacing the whole thing.. If you are not a stickler on having a teak face to the marine ply it will save you LOTS of money. Simply paint the new bulkhead white and go for a Herreshoff look. It would also brighten up and make the 28's cabin feel bigger.

This is what is referred to as a Herreschoff look..

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  #16  
Old 06-13-2008
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SEMIjim - Yeah, it was me that replaced the bulkhead on my Sabre 38. As an aside, my heart stopped since my last boat was a 1982 Sabre 28. I thought, oh my gawd, what did they do to my boat?! Fortunately, it's not the same, I can tell from the photos.

Ok, here goes.

1. Take a deep breath, it's not as bad as it looks. I had the same situation when we bought Victoria, our 38. The whole job took about 25 hours.
2. Take pictures during deconstruction so that you know where everything goes. Carefully remove all the trim and mark where they go on the reverse side. Save the vinyl hull covering too. Remove the chainplate hardware. If the mast is still up, use a halyard as a temporary stay.
3. Remove the shelving, DO NOT rip it out. You'll use all the plywood as a template. Basically, you'll have to unscrew the mounting cleats from wherever they're attached. Note that Sabre used resorcinol to glue the cleats to the plywood, so you'll have to pry them apart. SAVE THE SCREWS
4. Once the bulkhead is exposed on both sides, you'll need to detach it from the hull. Use a heavy duty cordless drill with a dry wall routing bit (the kind used to cut out receptacle boxes) to cut away the tabbing. I used a single bit, but have a spare ready in case it breaks. This is heavy work so wear hearing protection and a dust mask. Lay the drill parallel to the hull and slip the bit into the tabbing and work from the deck down along the hull. It's slow going, but will work.
5. Extract the bulkhead in as complete a piece as possible. Save all large pieces of plywood.
6. I used Lowe's exterior ply. NOT the nasty underlayment, but the 6 ply stuff. You don't have to worry too much about using marine plywood since YOU WILL keep your chainplates well sealed after this job. You'll probably need teak marine plywood because the bulkhead is exposed (min was in the head and formica covered). There are many sources.
7. Lay the nasty templates on the new plywood and carefully trace the outline. Cut with a jig saw to the line and make clean cuts. The bulkhead side doesn't have to be too fair, but definitely plane the exposed edges smooth. Use a plane and not a file - you'll get a much better job.
8. The hull edge of the bulkhead doesn't have to fit the contour exactly, but should be within a 1/8"-1/4". Tabbing will fix the rest.
9. Lay protective plastic and cardboard everywhere. I should have written this at the beginning, but you'll need it now.
10. Buy West Epoxy and fast set hardener. Buy heavy woven roving (WM Model #: 154013), NOT mat. Cut a continuous strip as long as the hull to bulkhead edge and about 8" wide. You need at least 4" lap on the hull and bulkhead on BOTH sides
10a. Attach the bulkhead to the deck and/or any cabinetry with screws to hold it in place during tabbing.
10b. I should have done this step, but didn't..... Mix West collidial silca filler with epoxy to make a paste and use as a temporary glue to attach the bulkhead to the hull along the hull edge of the bulkhead. Note that you MUST remove the squeeze-out. There can be NO lumps that impeded the roving layup. This is easily accomplished by taking a putty knife and pulling it along the bulkhead/hull edge, removing the excess putty. One pass on each side should do it.
11. Completely saturate the roving while laid flat on the plastic covering on the floor. Use gloves. Pick up an end and quickly transfer to the bulkhead/hull. It will be a dripping mess, so practice first while dry. Roll out with a resin roller. Make sure that there are NO bubbles.
12. Wipe up any excess dripping resin. DO NOT leave the job until the resin sets up. It could be a mess otherwise. Do not overwork the roll out as the resin sets, or it will begin to pull up. Basically just roll it out when you first lay it.
13. Reattach the shelving, etc. You'll probably want to pre-finish the wood with your choice of finish (I used satin urethane). Reattach trim using the legend that you wrote on each piece.
14. Reattach the hardware, redrilling the chainplate holes and SEALING the deck where the chainplates pass through. 3M 4200 works well

I think that I covered everything. I'll post a link in a few hours to photos of my job. It came out great and is SOLID; as good or better than the original.

You can do it if you are reasonably skilled with tools. Take your time. Buy the tools that you need and do not try to save money. Buy the best materials. Be neat, cleaning up after each session. You're already saving a bundle and this isn't the place to save a buck.

Good luck.
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  #17  
Old 06-13-2008
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Don't get the fast hardener if the temps are above 70˚F.

8... the bulkhead should have a slight gap between it and the hull. If it is touching, it can create a hard spot where the hull laminate will flex against. The space between the bulkhead and the hull should be filled with a bit of polyureathane foam—divinylcell or Airex are good choices.

As for 10b
... if you can leave a nice 1" radius cove bead along the edge of the bulkhead instead of removing all the epoxy, it will help the roving stick better and lay more cleanly along the edge. Fiberglass doesn't do well with tight-radius corners or hard edges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabreman View Post
SEMIjim - Yeah, it was me that replaced the bulkhead on my Sabre 38. As an aside, my heart stopped since my last boat was a 1982 Sabre 28. I thought, oh my gawd, what did they do to my boat?! Fortunately, it's not the same, I can tell from the photos.

Ok, here goes.

1. Take a deep breath, it's not as bad as it looks. I had the same situation when we bought Victoria, our 38. The whole job took about 25 hours.
2. Take pictures during deconstruction so that you know where everything goes. Carefully remove all the trim and mark where they go on the reverse side. Save the vinyl hull covering too. Remove the chainplate hardware. If the mast is still up, use a halyard as a temporary stay.
3. Remove the shelving, DO NOT rip it out. You'll use all the plywood as a template. Basically, you'll have to unscrew the mounting cleats from wherever they're attached. Note that Sabre used resorcinol to glue the cleats to the plywood, so you'll have to pry them apart. SAVE THE SCREWS
4. Once the bulkhead is exposed on both sides, you'll need to detach it from the hull. Use a heavy duty cordless drill with a dry wall routing bit (the kind used to cut out receptacle boxes) to cut away the tabbing. I used a single bit, but have a spare ready in case it breaks. This is heavy work so wear hearing protection and a dust mask. Lay the drill parallel to the hull and slip the bit into the tabbing and work from the deck down along the hull. It's slow going, but will work.
5. Extract the bulkhead in as complete a piece as possible. Save all large pieces of plywood.
6. I used Lowe's exterior ply. NOT the nasty underlayment, but the 6 ply stuff. You don't have to worry too much about using marine plywood since YOU WILL keep your chainplates well sealed after this job. You'll probably need teak marine plywood because the bulkhead is exposed (min was in the head and formica covered). There are many sources.
7. Lay the nasty templates on the new plywood and carefully trace the outline. Cut with a jig saw to the line and make clean cuts. The bulkhead side doesn't have to be too fair, but definitely plane the exposed edges smooth. Use a plane and not a file - you'll get a much better job.
8. The hull edge of the bulkhead doesn't have to fit the contour exactly, but should be within a 1/8"-1/4". Tabbing will fix the rest.
9. Lay protective plastic and cardboard everywhere. I should have written this at the beginning, but you'll need it now.
10. Buy West Epoxy and fast set hardener. Buy heavy woven roving (WM Model #: 154013), NOT mat. Cut a continuous strip as long as the hull to bulkhead edge and about 8" wide. You need at least 4" lap on the hull and bulkhead on BOTH sides
10a. Attach the bulkhead to the deck and/or any cabinetry with screws to hold it in place during tabbing.
10b. I should have done this step, but didn't..... Mix West collidial silca filler with epoxy to make a paste and use as a temporary glue to attach the bulkhead to the hull along the hull edge of the bulkhead. Note that you MUST remove the squeeze-out. There can be NO lumps that impeded the roving layup. This is easily accomplished by taking a putty knife and pulling it along the bulkhead/hull edge, removing the excess putty. One pass on each side should do it.
11. Completely saturate the roving while laid flat on the plastic covering on the floor. Use gloves. Pick up an end and quickly transfer to the bulkhead/hull. It will be a dripping mess, so practice first while dry. Roll out with a resin roller. Make sure that there are NO bubbles.
12. Wipe up any excess dripping resin. DO NOT leave the job until the resin sets up. It could be a mess otherwise. Do not overwork the roll out as the resin sets, or it will begin to pull up. Basically just roll it out when you first lay it.
13. Reattach the shelving, etc. You'll probably want to pre-finish the wood with your choice of finish (I used satin urethane). Reattach trim using the legend that you wrote on each piece.
14. Reattach the hardware, redrilling the chainplate holes and SEALING the deck where the chainplates pass through. 3M 4200 works well

I think that I covered everything. I'll post a link in a few hours to photos of my job. It came out great and is SOLID; as good or better than the original.

You can do it if you are reasonably skilled with tools. Take your time. Buy the tools that you need and do not try to save money. Buy the best materials. Be neat, cleaning up after each session. You're already saving a bundle and this isn't the place to save a buck.

Good luck.
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Last edited by sailingdog; 06-13-2008 at 05:51 PM.
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  #18  
Old 06-13-2008
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Ugh, nasty.

I would consider replacing the bulkhead with same thickness FIBERGLASS not wood, for the simple reason that plastic just CAN'T rot the same way, ever. Places like McMaster and Grainger sell it up to an inch thick, theonly question is whether they have sheets big enough to replace the whole bulkhead in one piece. And then, apply veneer or other facing over it to make it look proper.

If you can't find plastic, I'd use an epoxy penetrant or something similar to (again) make sure that problem simply never can happen again.

I wonder if anyone makes zirc fittings for chainplate deck mounts?

On the bright side--that's still a cheap price for a Sabre!
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  #19  
Old 06-13-2008
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The only comments that I would make on Sabreman's great post is:

You can not always get a big enough piece of plywood through the companionway to do the whole bulkheadand so you may need to laminate the bulkhead ou of multiple pieces of plywood, half of the thickness of the bulkhead, with their butt joints perhaps a foot or so staggered, and thoroughly glued.

I would strongly suggest using marine plywood since the primary difference is that non-marine plywood has more voids and these are a source of rot and structural failure on a bulkhead with fastenings, and high loads.

The problem with using a fiberglass bulkhead, besides expense and aesthetics is the weight which would be several times the weight of the same thickness wood.

Jeff
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  #20  
Old 06-13-2008
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A better alternative to a solid fiberglass bulkhead is to make a cored bulkhead, with solid laminate in the sections where the chainplate fittings are. That would be lighter and stronger than a plywood bulkhead, yet as rot-proof as a solid-fiberglass bulkhead. It would also be fairly easy to make in whatever size you required, and piecing sections together to make the entire bulkhead would be rather simple.
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Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
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