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post #31 of Old 06-22-2008
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Originally Posted by stu9000 View Post
Thanks for all the advice. I didnt even get a sense of anyone laughing their ass off. Im assuming that this is because youve got your own disaster stories. It would be good therapy for me if anyone wants to tell all here!
OK, I will give you a chuckle. It happened while I was building this:



(that stupid experimental lug sail may be a bonus laugh)

I built it on forms upside down. You lay in strakes working your way out from the center and you can do 2 boards (1 per side) a night if you want to be conservative and careful. Do those sound like words that describe me? One night I decided to try to do a second one because the first one fit so snugly. In retrospect, this was amazingly stupid, because I had spring clamps holding it directly to the form at intervals down the entire length which I replaced with a single batten only secured at the ends. It did not have near as much force holding it in place. But it seemed to work, so I gooped up the edges and started clamping the next board in. I made it all the way down when the upper board started to move a little. I got my hands on it and got it back int the proper position, but the clamp on one end of the batten popped off. I had one hand close enough to the end of the batten to hold it in place without the clamp and the other providing pressure on the middle of the batten (that lack of pressure was the problem with the idea). Looking around the garage, I saw a few things that might work to weight the batten, but if I let go, it would slip apart. It was late and my wife and kids were already in bed. I had kind of pushed pot life doing so much in one session, so it was only about an hour and a half until it set enough not to slip. I stood there holding it thinking about what an amazing genius boatbuilder I was...

-Andy
Newport 17 - "Kohanna"
At sea Darwin's hypotheses is the final arbiter of right of way.

Last edited by arbarnhart; 06-22-2008 at 08:59 AM.
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post #32 of Old 06-23-2008 Thread Starter
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The end result

Just got an email back from Rob @ Epoxy-resins.co.uk

I think ive got away with it but im somewhat humbled by the mistakes ive made.

Not mixing the epoxy correctly was just dumb.

Not being aware that csm matt should not be used with epoxy is a bolt from the blue! All I can say is thanks for bringing it up!

I asked Rob about this and he replied:

"chopped strand matting is normally held together with a binder that dissolves in Syrene Monomer which is found in polyester resins, epoxy does not contain any Styrene so the epoxy is actaully adhered to the adhesive that holds the fibres together not the actual fibres them selve. That is unless the csm you have is " E " glass in which case you would be OK as epoxy will bond through the powder bonding agent on the mat through to the glass filaments.
When using epoxy the rule of thumb is use woven or stiched fabrics rathe than random laid bonded ones unless they specify that they are laid up for use with epoxy.
The way you describe your planned repair sounds OK and you should not have problems in the future and I doubt weather you will have any delamination problems."

The key phrase for me was "the epoxy is actaully adhered to the adhesive that holds the fibres together".

Sounds like for the work im doing its not that big a deal.

Ive just checked the website and there is no specific info about whether it is "E glass" or appropriate or not to use with Epoxy. Ive sent an email.

I bought these items from somewhere else and will be buying from Epoxy-Resins.co.uk
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post #33 of Old 06-23-2008
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Yes, but if you're doing any structural type repairs, then:
Quote:
the epoxy is actaully adhered to the adhesive that holds the fibres together
means that the actual strength of the bond between the epoxy and the adhesive is the tensile strength of the adhesive, and the adhesive used to size CSM isn't all that strong.

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her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

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post #34 of Old 06-23-2008
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Sailingdog,
MEK is actually pretty innocuous. Highly flammable, but not known to be carcinogenic. Then again, it's the unknown stuff that gets you

Methyl Ethyl Ketone (2-Butanone) | US EPA

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post #35 of Old 06-23-2008
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Too many questions IMHO about how bad it is for you...so wear a good VOC cartridge when using it.
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Sailingdog,
MEK is actually pretty innocuous. Highly flammable, but not known to be carcinogenic. Then again, it's the unknown stuff that gets you

Methyl Ethyl Ketone (2-Butanone) | US EPA

Mike

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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #36 of Old 06-23-2008
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MEK doesn't have quite the flash off of acetone and is a stronger solvent. Both of which are desirable properties in this usage. Breathing the vapours or significant and prolonged skin contact is not desirable with either. But then I've used MEK as an emergency lighter fluid before so why would you trust me? (g) (and don't use acetone for that or you'll light your whole face) Work, as always with solvents, in a well ventilated space. MEK also cleans up your still wet epoxy brushes quite well also. It's the primary ingredient in PVC pipe primer and a derivative is the catalyst for gelcoat resin.

If you spill it on your boat you'd best be wiping it up rather soon as the stuff will dissolve about any plastic if left to rest.

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post #37 of Old 06-24-2008 Thread Starter
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Just received this from the vendor.

"I can confirm you can use Epoxy with CSM (chopped strand mat) but it has
to be the powder bound version. This is sold by CFS and is on our online
catalogue if you would like to take a look"

The prompt reply was nice but he hasnt really told me if the 300gm sq/m is "powder bound". Ive been all over the online catalogue and if its there its not obvious.

Ive sent another e mail
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post #38 of Old 06-25-2008
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Thank God I'm not alone
With proper force and right lifting you may be able to take the hole thing out on a hot summer day... That's what I did afterall... Then mek'ed it to clean, 120 then a 220 sanding to begin a fresh start with proper technique...
Good luck...
PS: The chopped fg is easier to work around the curves and etc... Mat on the other hand really hard and I'd say use it between successive layers of chopped fg to add strenght to needed points of repair...

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post #39 of Old 06-25-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stu9000 View Post
Just received this from the vendor.

"I can confirm you can use Epoxy with CSM (chopped strand mat) but it has
to be the powder bound version. This is sold by CFS and is on our online
catalogue if you would like to take a look"

The prompt reply was nice but he hasnt really told me if the 300gm sq/m is "powder bound". Ive been all over the online catalogue and if its there its not obvious.

Ive sent another e mail
That's why I like going to a marine store to grab a salesperson (ironic isn't it?) and shoot questions... What to use, where to use, how to use, where is she from, is she single...Hold on! That's not related to the thread... Anyways, ask the person until you've got the answers you need to start with...

" I refuse to engage in an intellectual battle with an unarmed man!"

Materialism: Buying the things we don't need, with money we don't have, to impress people who don't matter.
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post #40 of Old 06-25-2008 Thread Starter
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this guy is a man of few words=

"Dear Sir
You cannot use the CSM you have with Epoxy.
It will not break down the binder."

Maybe you guys can be more help.
Im half way through repairing a couple of 2 inch holes in the hull.

Pics here
http://stu9000.jalbum.net/edit%20g/

I know its not correct csm but will it last a season or two.

If its a disaster area, fine. Ill get in there with the belt sander.
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