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Electrical Problem - Newbie Not Sure Where to Start

5K views 32 replies 15 participants last post by  SailNet Archive 
#1 ·
All,

I have an electrical issue on my new-to-us good old boat, which is powered by an Atomic 4. I'm new to the idiosyncrasies of the Atomic 4 as well as the electrical system on our boat, which appears to have 30 years of DIY ad-hoc modifications.

Last weekend, we motored for 6+ hours on a return trip on account of weather. About 4 hours into the trip, the engine started to run rough. The problem continued for a few minutes and then I decided to drop the throttle down at which point the engine stalled. I attempted to restart the engine without success (the starter didn't move). I opened the engine compartment and didn't notice anything abnormal. I happened to look at the battery switch indicator and noticed that it was set to BATTERY#1, which is not my ususal protocol when motoring (we usually have the switch set to BOTH when motoring). I also noticed that the blower was still slowly turning (we usually switch that off following a successful engine start). It is probably also useful to mention that we overnighted on the boat the night before and, while we weren't heavy users of electrical power, we probably had some lighting on for part of the evening. I then set the battery switch to BOTH and tried the engine, which promptly started, and we motored for another 3 hours without incident. I arrived on the boat last night to find that the engine wouldn't start. When the battery switch was set to BOTH or BATTERY #2, I heard something going when attempting to start the engine but it didn't turn over. When the battery switch was set to BATTERY #1, I heard nothing. I pulled both batteries last night to check the charge and recharge them if necessary. Battery #1 showed 10 and change volts and Battery #2 showed 11 and change volts. I hooked them up to a charger to top them off. By the way, both batteries are 2 months old.

The question is, what's going on? My ignorance of basic electrical systems is killing me and I've committed to learning everything I can before the winter in order to undertake a complete overhaul of my electrical system. That being said, I need to function the rest of the summer.

Could it possibly be that the blower, which is wired directly to the batteries, was pulling more power off the batteries that they were receiving in the way of a charge while the engine was running? Could it be that another 2-3 hours of motoring was not sufficient to charge both batteries? Does this sound like an alternator problem? Any direction would be helpful.

Many thanks,

Mike
s/v Liberty
 
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#3 ·
Your engine is not charging, its a failure on your alternator system. Check it all over for disconections, loose bolts, rusted connectins, fuses, switches, etc ... Volts on your battery terminals should read about 14 during engine charging operation. If, after you recharged batts and fired the engine, you don't read that, take your alternator for repair.
 
#4 ·
I'd guess alternator as well. When motoring along it should be putting out 13-14v depending on it's setting and that should be both recharging the battery and providing the spark to the engine and power for whatever else is running.

Unfortunately if the engine died when the battery got below 10v that means the alternator isn't providing spark for your plugs.

what you heard when you tried to start with the low voltage on battery two was the solenoid clicking, it was clicking because there was not enough voltage to disengage it.

If it wasn't providing spark your batteries would be dead rather quickly.

Here's a nice link for starting troubleshooting, but I second that you should have Nigel's book in hand.
Troubleshooting the Alternator System

It might be as simple as loose belts, or a wire being loose, don't despair and call a mechanic just yet.
 
#5 ·
You are getting good, consistent information here.
( except that there should be no apostrophe in a possessive "its")

A question to our Sailnet experts.... Would this boat have an external regulator, or would it be integral to the alternator? If so, then can the OP be guided to a method to test/isolate the regulator?

David
 
#6 ·
Thank you all for your prompt feedback. I have a couple of follow-up questions.

First, assuming the alternator is the problem, which seems to be the initial consensus here, is it possible that the alternator is providing some power but an insufficient amount to continue to run the engine, and that the batteries have been filling the gap? In other words, is there a mechanism by which the power received from both sources (alternator and battery) are balanced to achieve the desired power input to the engine?

Second, assuming the alternator is the problem, for how long do you believe a fully charged battery can continue to start and run and engine (and various other electrical devices) without receiving a full or partial charge back from the alternator?

Third, let's assume I troubleshoot the alternator in accordance with the guidance you all have been kind enough to provide, and I can't identify the problem, what will it cost to replace, repair and/or rebuild an alternator, and can someone who is mechanically inclined but not experienced (i.e., me) install a new or repaired/rebuilt alternator? Would you recommend me doing so?

Thanks again. You all have been great.

Mike
s/v Liberty
 
#8 · (Edited)
Thank you all for your prompt feedback. I have a couple of follow-up questions.

First, assuming the alternator is the problem, which seems to be the initial consensus here, is it possible that the alternator is providing some power but an insufficient amount to continue to run the engine, and that the batteries have been filling the gap?
Maybe. Or maybe the alternator's no longer doing anything at all.

Btw: Being as battery #1 died while the engine was running, switching to "both" was sub-optimal. You actually reduced your run-time that way, because now battery #2 was also trying to replenish battery #1.

Secondly: I wonder if it would've been a good idea to alert the CG of my situation and establish a check-in schedule, in case battery #2 bit the dust before I was able to complete my journey?

Second, assuming the alternator is the problem, for how long do you believe a fully charged battery can continue to start and run and engine (and various other electrical devices) without receiving a full or partial charge back from the alternator?
There are so many variables there, I wouldn't even try to guess a time.

Third, let's assume I troubleshoot the alternator in accordance with the guidance you all have been kind enough to provide, and I can't identify the problem, what will it cost to replace, repair and/or rebuild an alternator,
You're not going to try to repair your own alternator. Nobody does that. You're going to obtain a new or rebuilt replacement.

and can someone who is mechanically inclined but not experienced (i.e., me) install a new or repaired/rebuilt alternator? Would you recommend me doing so?
Yes and yes. It's trivial.

I recommend you head on over to Moyer Marine and pick up the A4 Service and Overhaul manual. Indispensable.

Btw: It might be just the belt's off (broken). AutoZone carries the exact belt you need , if that's it :).

Jim
 
#7 ·
It sounds like you fried the alternator by turning the main battery switch to the off position while the engine was still running. If that is the case, you should probably install a Zap-Stop when you get it repaired.
 
#9 ·
Volts give you some idea of what's happening, but it's not enough to give you the whole picture. One approach would be to pull the alternator off and take to AutoZone (or similar) and they can test it for you.

Volts don't tell you the whole story on batteries either. A full battery will rest at 12.7 volts. A dead battery will rest at 11.7 volts. Really the only way to know for sure is to install a battery monitoring system the counts every amp hour going out and every one going in to your battery. Then you can tell how many you have used and how many are left. However if the battery volts come up to 14 ish while running and rest at about 12.7 (with no load or charging for 24 hours) you are probably in good shape. You need leave your batteries on a good quality fully automatic charger for a few days to get them back up. It's hard a battery to run it down as far as you did. A few hours of running should help the batteries, but it wont get them back to max charge.

You need to check your electrical system carefully. You have to be systematic about it. Starting at the battery check the voltage, then to the switch, to the starting solenoid, to the alternator, checking each and every connection along the way. Check the voltage as you go (from the positive lead back the battery negative if possible). It should be very very close to the voltage you read directly off the battery. If any connections are loose or dirty take it apart clean it, re-assemble it, then move on down the line. Also start at the battery and follow the ground side doing the same for that. Again, voltage is only a trouble shooting aide. You could have fully voltage when testing with a meter, but it could dip way down under actual load if you have a bad connection or a bad cable. However, if you find a voltage drop with a meter under zero load you are sure have a problem under a load.

Trouble shooting is about being systematic, and eliminating items that work as you go. It would be nice to go straight to the problem, but that's usually not how it works.
 
#10 ·
Battery switch...
Battery switches are "make before break" type switches. You can switch between 1, Both, and 2 while running as long as you don't go across the Off position. The switch should turn all the way around so you can avoid the Off position, or be setup so you don't have to cross it. If it doesn't do this the answer is no, you can't do it without destroying the alternator diodes even if you turn it really fast.
 
#11 ·
Yes, your alternator is not charging.

It will be one of...

Diodes blown (switching the battery master when the engine is running is notorious for that one).
The alternator has shed a brush.
The regulator has fizzed out.

When it blew, your batteries were able to meet the electrical load to keep the motor ignition running, but eventually were not able to do that.

A typical alternator output voltage when connected to the battery and with engine running is about 14V.
 
#13 ·
Take your alternator off to get it tested at any number of auto parts places. Then off to a dedicated auto electrical shop. it will be much less expensive to replace the diode pack/regulator and brushes there than it would be to replace the alternator.
 
#14 ·
And a lot cheaper than having a marine shop do the exact same work with the exact same parts. :)
 
#17 ·
Here's a scenario.

#1 Your alt may be wired directly to bank #2 and not bank #1 thus requiring the use of the BOTH position to charge bank #1.

#2 If you were running on bank #1 but the engine was charging bank #2 it is understandable why you killed bank one if the above scenario is correct.

Many boaters choose to wire directly to the "load" or bank rather than the battery selector switch to avoid the dreaded "off" position and the potential for frying the alt diodes. Unfortunately when you do this you then need to manually select the both position (really not such a good idea) or buy a ACR type automatic combining relay.


#3 NEVER, EVER, EVER combine your battery banks using the BOTH position if you know one bank is severely depleted or dead!! This is about the WORST thing you can do as doing this automatically depletes the good battery bank AND CAN POTENTIALLY LEAVE YOU REALLY DEAD IN THE WATER... I'll take that one step further and say NEVER combine banks using the BOTH position unless they are actively being charged!!!!!



#4 Buy a multi-meter and Nigel Calder's book because as you've seen with these responses there are about as many guesses as to how your boat is actually wired as there are days of the year...!!! You need to understand your boats electrical system...
 
#18 ·
This point is well worth repeating.. also, a battery combiner will generally help you avoid this point.
#3 NEVER, EVER, EVER combine your battery banks using the BOTH position if you know one bank is severely depleted or dead!! This is about the WORST thing you can do as doing this automatically depletes the good battery bank AND CAN POTENTIALLY LEAVE YOU REALLY DEAD IN THE WATER... I'll take that one step further and say NEVER combine banks using the BOTH position unless they are actively being charged!!!!!
 
#19 ·
First thing, SteveinMD, you may or may not be correct. Newer battery switches are 'make before break' types. Old ones, such as found on anything with an Atomic Four are probably NOT make before break switches.

Now then, with that out of the way, the next thing I'd like to know is what kind of batteries are installed? Are they deep cycle or starting batteries? If they're the ones taunted as being able to do both, get rid of them as soon as you can afford it! Combination batteries all have one thing in common: they can't do either job very well. They don't have many cranking amps, and they don't have many storage minutes, making them the worst of all worlds. If they are starter batteries, (normal automotive type) then they really don't like being run down. The lead plates in a starter battery are very thin, which gives them the ability to provide a lot of amps for a short time. A deep cycle battery, conversely, has thick plates which don't like huge loads (like starter motors, bow thrusters, electric winches, etc.) They want to be discharged at a fairly low, consistent rate. Doing otherwise will kill them. Likewise, long slow loads on a starter battery will kill it in short order. You might (MIGHT!) get five or six deep discharges on a starter battery before those thin plates short out because they've warped.

Now then, on to the alternator. I know this sounds simplistic, but is the belt snug? It's been years since I had an Atomic Four, but as I recall, the fan belt went from the crankshaft to the water pump and then to the alternator. The adjustment for belt tightness is on the alternator. Check the belt, make sure there are no little chunks missing, no cracks, or rubber debris under the engine, alternator, etc. The belt should be snug, not high-e guitar string tight. All that will accomplish is wearing out the bearings in the alternator and water pump. Pick the longest piece of belt, again it's been years, but I think it is the one between the alternator and the engine pulley and push on it with your thumb. You should get less than a half inch of movement, pushing in the dead center of the belt. If not, snug it up a bit.

To accomplish this, take a look at the alternator. It will be pivot mounted in one place to the engine block. The other side will have an adjustment bracket with a slot cut in it. Moving the alternator away from the engine should tighten it up. If you have no adjustment left, (common in a belt with over two years of use), you need to replace it before you even consider changing out the alternator. If the belt is too loose to turn the alternator pulley, it's not going to charge, period.

Okay. The belt is in acceptable shape and snug. Next thing is to take a very hard look at the wires connected to the alternator. I'm operating on old memory again, but as I recall, the Atomic Four's alternator uses an external regulator. You can tell by looking at the back of the alternator. If more than one wire is coming off of it, you have a regulator somewhere. More on that in a moment or two.

If your alternator has one nice big wire coming out of it, then the previous owner did a good thing and put a modern alternator on. (More on that, too.)

In any event, the next thing is universal. If you don't have a DVM (digital volt meter) go and get one. If you have a Harbor Freight close, they have a very, very good one for about $40 bucks. I think Northern Tool has them, too. Last choice is Radio Shack. Don't bother with the cheap ones. Get one that at least has an automatic shut off, or plan on carrying a goodly supply of 9V batteries, because you'll inevitably leave it on and the next time you need it, it won't work...(Experience). Last bit of advice on buying a meter: don't by one of the really expensive ones at an electrical or electronic supply house like a Fluke. You don't need anything that fancy, and you're paying a bundle for the name.

Okay, you've got your new meter. Put it in the DC VOLTs mode. If you're lucky, it'll say DC Volts. If not, look for something that looks like an equal sign ( = ) with a broken, dotted STRAIGHT line above it. That's to make them universal worldwide. For people who can't read... The other thing will be an equal sign with a squiggle line over it ( ~ ). That's AC volts.

Plug the meter leads in. The red lead goes into the VOLTS AC/DC hole. It will usually have a red circle around it to make it easy to find. The black lead will plug into the hole that has a ground symbol. That will look kind of like an upside down christmas tree, and be circled in black. The third hole will say A/MA. That's Amps or Milliamps. That gets useful when you get a little more familiar with troubleshooting your electrical circuit. The A/MA part of the meter will measure either 3 amps or 20 amps. It'll tell you what the maximum input is. If it says 20 amps, be advised this is for a very short time. The built-in shunt resistor in the meter can't dissipate 20 amps very long before something starts melting.

Okay, you have your brandy new meter. What to do with it? First things first. Measure across your batteries with the main switch OFF. As was mentioned, they should read about 12.7 volts DC. BTW, if you have a battery charger, make sure it's off and then wait at least 30 minutes before you check the battery voltage. Plenty of time for a cup of coffee. (NO rum--no yet, anyway.)

Let's assume that the batteries have 12+ volts on them. Both of them. If one is more than .2 volts different, the lower battery may be sick. Not dead, perhaps, but sick. And they only get sicker with time.

Now it's time to do some serious trouble shooting. Turn the battery switch to whichever battery had the higher voltage. If they're the same, it doesn't matter which one you choose. Start the engine, and run the engine up to about 1200-1500 RPM. The reason for this is to make sure you've reached the charging threshold. Most alternators really don't put out much at the usual 700-900 RPM idle speed.

With the engine running at 1200+ RPM, you should see about 13.6 volts on the batteries. You might see as much as 14.4 volts. Any higher than that, and you have a problem, at any time. Shut things down or you'll start melting things like the battery cables and/or the battery posts.

If you have 13.4 to 14.4 volts at the battery, the charging system is (probably) working properly.

If the voltage is below 13.4 volts, or if it didn't change or went down, your charging system isn't working.

Next step. We're assuming the battery voltage remained the same or dropped. Connect the black lead of the meter to the engine block or the alternator itself, even better. Pick a bolt, bracket, etc., with no paint on it. The meter can't read through paint!

With the engine still running, connect the red lead of the meter to the biggest wire leading away from the alternator. This is the charging lead and it is (probably) connected to the COM(mon) connection on the battery switch. If the voltage there is 13.4+ Volts, the alternator is working, and your problem is a bad battery cable, or a bad charging lead. Look hard at the charging lead. It should be a large wire. In the case of electricity, ignore the yard dogs and manufacturers; size counts, and bigger is better!

If the wire or the connectors look like they've gotten hot (discolored, melted), then they probably have. That's a good indication that the wire from the alternator is too bloody small. I know people will beat up on me for this, but I won't run anything smaller than 8 gauge wire from the alternators to the battery/battery switch. 6 ga. is better and 4 ga. is better still. Large wire means less resistance, and less resistance means less heat for one thing, and less 'voltage drop'.

Now then, let's assume that the voltage at the alternator, with the engine running, is the same as the batteries. Time to dig deeper into the mysteries of your charging system.

Shut the engine down. The next thing may involve tugging on wire bundles and harnesses, and you don't need the engine for that.

Let's go back to basics first. Turn your battery switch to OFF. Take another very hard look at your battery cables. If they are nasty-green or gooey white, you've got a corrosion problem! Don't assume anything here unless you've already done this. Get yourself one of the little battery terminal wire brushes at your local auto parts house. They have a little bottle brush, and an internal brush. Disconnect the ground leads (That's the minus [ - ] side of the batteries.) Stuff the bottle brush into the cable leads and spin it until the connectors are shiny inside. Then use the internal brush and put it on the battery terminal and turn it until the metal is shiny. LEAVE THE GROUNDS DISCONNECTED!

Now disconnect the positive ( + ) side of the batteries, and clean those terminals and battery posts. When the terminals and posts are all nice and shiny, you can hook them back up, positive sides first. Be careful the wrench (not pliers, not channel locks or vice grips, please!) doesn't connect between the posts on the battery or you will get your first experience in arc welding, and probably get a nasty burn in the process.

This is a note: If, by some chance, your batteries have bolts with wingnuts on them, take the wingnuts and throw them overboard right now, for two reasons: the first one is common sense! Wingnuts, by their nature, like to loosen themselves up. The second one is that the ABYC and therefore the Coast Guard now frowns very highly on wingnuts for battery connections. Just toss them overboard and go by new nuts and lockwashers.

Make sure that the battery connections, whether they are terminal posts or studs with NUTS are tight. Don't get carried away. They don't have to be torqued to 75 foot pounds or something. Tight. Just average tight will work fine.

When you're done putting the connections back together, slather or spray a corrosion blocker of some kind on the battery terminals. Those little red and green felt gadgets they sell at the auto parts house also work well. Personally, I put a liberal coat of Corrosion Block on everything. It's thin and wicks up into the wire nicely. The greasy stuff is okay, but messy and seems to get onto everything within fifty yards of where you put it.

Now take a hard look at the battery switch terminals, and under them. Do they look like they've gotten hot? If so, toss the switch. If not, we'll do one more test, then assume the switch is okay. With the battery switch in the OFF position, put your meter in the OHMS mode. (That's the horseshoe looking symbol). Set it for the lowest range the meter has. For an auto-ranging meter, it'll be fine. Measure the four terminals from one to the other. (That's a few little tests.) It should read open, or whatever it was showing before you connected the meter leads. If it shows a reading at all or says 0.00, then the switch is bad.

Next, switch the switch to 1 and connect your meter from the connector marked 1 to the connector marked COM. The meter should read 0 ohms or thereabouts. You can take the meter leads and touch them together to find out what the leads measure. The test we're doing now should be just about the same reading. If the meter give you a reading, say 20 ohms or something, the switch is a high-resistance short, and is probably bad.

Check the switch in position 2 to COM. Same holds true. If you see anything much more than the reading from the leads only, the switch is probably shot.

Now, then. You may find a another small connection on the back of the battery switch. It may be labled "Field" or "Safety". If this isn't connected, never, never, never, never switch from Battery 1 to 2 or Both with the engine running. This will blow up the alternator in less time than it takes to say it. (It sounds like this is what you probably did, btw.)

Okay. The battery switch and all of its connections seem good. You've snugged the nuts up. Put it back where it was. Time to head for the alternator again.

Take a look at the back of the alternator. If it has just one nice big wire running from it, it has an internal regulator. (It also won't care about switching the battery switch with the engine running, because the Field winding gets it's voltage from the one wire that is connected to the battery.)

If, after all of this, you have one wire coming out of the alternator, and the voltage doesn't read 13.6 volts with the engine running, the alternator is bad. I'll explain changing it in a bit, and talk about where to get a new one while I'm at it.

If the alternator has more than one big wire, it'll likely have one big wire and two or three small wires. These little wires go off to the voltage regulator. Look around your engine room, and you'll probably find a little black metal box that is about two and a half inches wide, three or four inches long and about two or three inches tall with 3 wires attached. That's your voltage regulator. It also might (not likely, but might) be a black epoxy block with 3 wires attached. That's an electronic regulator, probably a Chrysler automotive unit, and is something to cast an evil eye on. They don't like being mistreated or heat.

If your regulator is the black (or maybe silver or blue) metal can type, it's a Ford style, and they are cheap. If your alternator isn't putting out, change the regulator first. It's cheap. Or...

Here's my real recommendation if you have the original Atomic 4 alternator. Disconnect the positive sides of your batteries to be absolutely safe, disconnect the wires from the back of the alternator, then remove the bolts that are holding the alternator to the engine. Take the belt with you, along with the alternator, to your local NAPA dealer. The reason I'm recommending them is because they have a nice picture book that shows pictures of the alternators they sell, their amp output and physical size. If you go to Advance or one of those places, chances are you'll walk out frustrated and without a replacement part, because they have no way of eyeballing the alternator in a book.

Tell the parts guy you what you're doing. You're replacing an antique alternator, and want a one-wire alternator that is the same size. Let him know you're working on a boat, but that you DO NOT WANT a 'marine alternator'. The simple truth is, they aren't marinized. They don't have stainless bearings, they aren't any better than an automotive unit, and they cost between two and three times as much! If your engine room is dry (and it should be), an automotive unit will last just as long as the more expensive marine units.

I'm working from memory again, but it seems to me that the stock Atomic 4 alternator put out a puny 30 or 35 amps. Select an alternator that puts out at least 50 amps. Some of them go as high as 120 amps, but they usually won't fit without jumping through a few hoops, so choose one that is physically about the same size and has about the same sized pully (diameter!). Make sure the 'pitch' of the pulley is the same. That's why you took the belt with you. While you're at it. Replace the belt unless it's new. Buy one anyway. They always go out when you are heading back into a tight port and it's pouring down rain. Always. Every time. Ask me. Been there, done that. More than once.

As I recall, there is a late 1970's - early 1980's GM alternator that fits right in. A buddy of mine did it, and he said that all he had to do was add a couple of flat washers for spacers to get the pulleys to line up.

Anyway, take your shiny new alternator back to the boat and get it physically installed where the old one was. Take a ruler or other real straight edge, (No, not that piece of scrap teak), and place it vertically across the big engine pully or better, the water pump pulley, which is probably the same thickness. The new alternator's pulley has to be parallel to the other two pulleys or you'll wear belts out in just a couple of hours. If it's within a 1/16 inch, you're good to go. If not, you might have to use some flat washers to shim the pulley until it is straight and parallel. When you're doing this, make sure the attachment bolts are very snug. Alternators like to droop a bit when things are loose.

When you're satisfied that the pulleys are lined up, put the belt on and snug it up. Sometimes you can do this by just pulling the alternator away from the engine by hand, but usually you have to put a pry-bar of some kind in to get the leverage you need. Again, it doesn't have to be 'E' string tight, just hard to push with your thumb. Tighten everything up, and you're ready to wire the beast.

On the back of your shiny new alternator is a 5/16, 3/8 or some metric equivalent nut on an insulated stud. It's usually a copper colored stud. That's your sense/output connection. It may say BAT or ( + ), but that's it. Connect a nice big, heavy wire between that and the COM on your battery switch. Voila! You're finished.

Reconnect your batteries, switch one (or both) of them on, and start the engine. Check the voltage across the battery. It should be 13.6 or there abouts, or maybe as much as 14.4 if it's a really good alternator. That's it. You're done.

(I just replaced my very-very expensive Volvo 35 amp alternator with a one-wire GM 73 amp unit for about $45 bucks. Volvo wanted over $300. The whole job took me three hours, start to finish.)

Now, after a job very well done, it's time to break out the rum and celebrate. Let me tell you a good one! Get yourself a bottle of Bacardi LIMON rum, a six pack of Minutemade Limeade and some club soda. Take a nice stovepipe glass, fill it with cracked ice. Dump in a shot (or so!) of LIMON rum, add the limeade until the glass is about 2/3 full. Fill the glass the rest of the way with Club Soda and you have an Island Breeze. Named after the boss's boat, and approved by none other than Joachim Bacardi (one of our previous neighbors in Miami). I think you'll find that my bud Joachim is marketing something suspiciously like my drink now.

Anyway, take your drink, head for the cockpit, and give yourself a well earned pat on the back and celebrate. You're now an expert!

I know I was long winded, but I wanted to make sure everyone can use this. It can be abridged, and it doesn't take long the second time around.

Good luck. If this hasn't helped, let me know, and we can exchange phone numbers--I'll try and talk you through it.

BTW, I've been boating for nearly a half century (Ye gods!), and have a BSEE, so this is in my back yard.

Later,

Cap'n Gary
S/V Island Breeze, 56' semi-custom cutter
 
#24 ·
In any event, the next thing is universal. If you don't have a DVM (digital volt meter) go and get one. If you have a Harbor Freight close, they have a very, very good one for about $40 bucks.
I just picked up one of those meters from Harbor Freight. (For anybody that goes to look, our HF keeps them in a locked glass case, not in the "electronics" aisle with the even-less-expensive stuff.)

It's no Fluke, but it looks like it'll do for the boat. It even has dwell and techometer functions! :) (Tho the dwell won't help me with our A4, as the PO upgraded it to electronic ignition.) I found the case that holds meter, leads, etc. just sneaks into a large zip-lock-style storage bag. Perfect!

Oh, and it's got a temperature probe: Perfect for keeping an eye on the beer temperature :D.

Thanks for the lead, Cap'n Gary!

Jim
 
#20 ·
Okay, I went back on the boat late yesterday with fully charged batteries with the goal of putting a meter to the alternator and the batteries. Unfortunately, I didn't have with me Gary1's incredibly thorough trouble-shooting guide. Here is what I learned. I have an original equipment, Motrola 35 amp alternator. With the boat idling, I read a steady 12 volts (I was using an analog meter, which, after reading these most recent posts, was pure folly) off the alternator. I then put the meter to the batteries while the engine was idling and got a steady 12-13 volts.

Based upon the most recent posts, it would seem that might Alernator is not fully functional but I would like to run Gary1's checklist first. Also, Halekai36's comments are worth exploring further. As you may all recall, we were probably running a variety of low-draw electrical equipment, while motoring on Battery #1, and, as I mentioned before, the blower was inadvertently left on for 4 or more hours (presumably the blower draws quite a bit). Is it possible that we were drawing more down on Battery #1 than the alternator was able to supply, and then when I switched to "Both," I effectively killed Battery#2?

I should mention to the board that I had a discussion with a group of friends last night about this message board. I am absolutely floored by the responses, and deeply appreciative of all of your time and thought in responding to my query. I promise to learn boat electrical systems and return the knoweldge to this group (I have no choice but learn with a good old boat!).

Mike
s/v Liberty
 
#22 ·
I should mention to the board that I had a discussion with a group of friends last night about this message board. I am absolutely floored by the responses, and deeply appreciative of all of your time and thought in responding to my query. I promise to learn boat electrical systems and return the knoweldge to this group (I have no choice but learn with a good old boat!).

Mike
s/v Liberty
As great as this forum is, be sure to become a regular visitor to the forums over at the Moyer Marine website, too. You'll find that it's a treasure trove of information specific to the Atomic 4 engine, and has an online store that will provide all the parts you'll ever need. Don and his team are a wonderful resource, and you can call 'em up right on the phone for help if you need it.

I strongly recommend buying the A4 manual from the site. It's got a lot of information that you'll want to have ready to hand. The A4 is a primitive engine, literally Model T-era technology, and it's very easy to work on if you have a minimum of mechanical skills. I suppose that's why you still find so many of them out there, even though every new boat has a diesel these days.

Welcome to the A4 fraternity!
 
#21 ·
Excellent post, Cap'n Gary! Maybe this thread should be skicky'd, just for that one post.

Mike, No: Your bilge blower shouldn't be drawing enough, even with other average electronics on-board (depth meter, knotmeter, GPS, radio, etc.) running, to defeat a healthy alternator. Not even the wimpy 35A stock alternator on an A4.

Jim
 
#25 ·
No BSEE here so thanks Gary1 for the detailed post.
I thought I remember reading in Caulder that 'marine' alternators were different than automotive ones? In any case, they both serve the same function (charging) so if one is A LOT cheaper then the other it makes sense to use an automotive one even if it may not last quite as long.
I once was 'helping' a friend with a new to him Endeavor 32' when we accidentally connected the batts in reverse and fried the diodes. I priced marine replacements in the $500-600 range for the Universal diesel so I ended up removing it and took it to an automotive re-build shop in Annapolis. They replaced the diodes and serviced it such that I did not recognize it when I picked it up ($250). A year later it is still working fine.
For this reason it is a really good idea to LABEL the wires for your batteries and ALL connections for that matter.
 
#26 ·
Caleb,

The really high dollar alternators like Bal-Mar really are marinized. The cases are Awl-Gripped, they're a little more water resistant, etc. That being said, they can cost up to a grand, and most sailboat owners don't have that kind of money.

The simple truth is, if you think about it, if you don't need a 300 amp alternator, why buy one? Most people can get by easily on the original equipment units, and those may only put out 35 amps. Unless you have multiple banks of huge batteries, that 300 amp unit is going to chug along at maybe 35 or 40 amps most of the time, since most batteries can't accept a charge of 300 amps. If they can, chances are they are shorted internally.

Anyway, think about this: your car or truck drives in the rain, and the alternator gets wet occasionally, right? Unless you have a real problem, your engine room will probably be warmer, dryer and more secure than underneath your car's hood, so why pay someone $200 bucks for a typical GM alternator when you can buy the exact same unit for a truck or ambulance (my favorite!) for $40 bucks? They use the same bearings, the same diodes, and all of that. What ultimately counts is how many amps can the thing put out? The one I just put on Breeze is rated at 73 amps @ 1800 RPM. Bear in mind that's alternator RPM, not engine RPM. It hits the two banks of golf cart batteries with about 55 amps when they were low. If they were REALLY low, I have a 150 amp unit that has a Bal-Mar 3 stage, computerized regulator installed on it, and that monster can hit the batteries with about 120 amps for about ten minutes before it drops back to 40 or so. I usually don't run the big alternator, because it actually loads the engine down. But it is there, and goes along for the ride. It is supposedly a marine alternator, too. The truth is, about six months ago the front bearing went away, so I tore it apart myself, since the local alternator shop wanted $200 bucks to replace the bearing.

Once I got the thing apart, I found a standard, non-sealed bearing that was rusted up. The rear bearing was a bushing, not a bearing, so I went to the local bearing supply place with the case in hand and spent a while digging through their books. I found a stainless, pre-lubricated, sealed bearing for the front bearing and a caged needle bearing assembly to replace the bushing in the back. I checked the diodes with my meter and didn't see anything untoward, so I put the thing back together and stuffed it back aboard. It should last another ten years, at least. My final cost? About 65 bucks for both bearings and a couple of hours of my time coming out, troubleshooting, and fixing it. Another hour going back in. While I was there, I changed all of the belts for both alternators, scraped a little rust and painted the alternator mounts, and reterminated the wiring because the output lead was showing a little corrosion at the crimp-on connector.

Why'd I fix it myself? Partly because I'm a tightwad with the boss's money. Partly because I knew if the guy at the alternator shop was going to charge me $200 bucks, he planned on fixing it for under a hundred. I've gotten the shaft a couple of times by yards and marine services, so I tend to try and do my own troubleshooting and repairs when I possibly can, and time allows. Also, if the thing doesn't work, I've got no one to blame but myself. besides. I like to tinker, and play with all of my tools.

Anyway, beware when you buy a 'marine grade' whatizit. Take a real hard look at it first. Carry a little magnet in your pocket. If your magnet sticks to something, it's probably not 'marine grade', because copper, good stainless steel, brass, and bronze are non-magnetic. There are places where regular steel is a necessity, but you'd be shocked at how many of those high-priced 'marine grade' lights at WM and elsewhere are nothing but cheap, stamped steel with a very thin coat of brass or chrome. That wouldn't be bad if they'd charge accordingly, but Perko, et al, still dig into your wallet and pull out all they can find for what is, basically, Wal-Mart grade stuff.

You can expect prices to get a lot worse, too. The wholesale cost of stainless steel, brass and copper have tripled in the last two years and just took another quantum jump a couple of weeks ago. Where I could buy a 20' stick of 1" S/S thick wall tubing for $120 bucks two years ago, it's nearly $500 bucks now, and I'm buying wholesale. So hang on, because it's gonna be a wild ride in the near future. Messing about in boats is about to get expensive. (More expensive, I mean!)

Later,

Cap'n Gary
 
#28 ·
Gary1,
I hope you had a great Independence Day and thanks for your (again) detailed reply to my question. You are obviously a rather detail oriented and intelligent person who (like me and most boaters) is a tightwad to boot. Thanks for taking the time to make such a well thought out reply on the subject of 'marine' vs 'automobile' alternators.
I should re-read the electrical section in the Nigel Caulder book to find the section(s) or sentence(s) that indicate that 'marine' alternators are superior. I suspect he would have been inclined to mention this as a plug for some of the members of the NMMA (Nat'l Marine Merchants Assoc.) and ABYC etc. If his book (which is considered kind of a 'Bible' by some) said it did not matter a hill of beans when considering marine vs automotive alternators he might not have been given the endorsement of some fairly powerful lobbies. Your straight talk is refreshing in a world with vested interests where the manufacturers dictate what the vendors tell the public what they 'need'. This kind of thing makes me wonder a bit about many so-called 'marine' grade products that cost more than the average land based equivalent.
I am pretty sure that bottom paint is one product that does not translate easily into a land based equivalent that you can buy at say, Lowe's or WalMart, but it makes me wonder about many of the 'marine' grade stuff I have and do buy. Batteries for my Tartan 27' come to mind which are 2 x Group 27 deep cycle batteries (replacement cost: $100+ per battery).
We mostly use the batts for starting our ancient Atomic 4 (or 3) engine and VHF radio and hardly ever overnight on the boat so we do not drain a lot of power out of them. We even rigged up a small (2'x2') Sunsei solar panel to trickle charge 1 of the batteries at a time. I gather that this is not a good idea as the low battery brings down the one with the higher charge if the batt switch is set to ALL.
My main question on batteries is: should I be using my deep cycle batteries (#1 or #2) for starting our engine (alternator is working) or should I think about getting golf cart batteries for a house bank that is only used for everything other than the engine? This is mostly a rhetorical question as my needs and bank seem to be working pretty well so far (have not replaced a batt in 3-4 years and keep them trickle charged in off season called winter up here in NY).
BTW, I believe we have the original Motorola 35 amp alternator still in service and I should add up our battery ah. to see if we are getting the 25% of amps to bank ratio from a 30+ amp alternator that Caulder recommends.
Thanks again for your time and opinion.
 
#30 ·
My main question on batteries is: should I be using my deep cycle batteries (#1 or #2) for starting our engine (alternator is working) or should I think about getting golf cart batteries for a house bank that is only used for everything other than the engine? This is mostly a rhetorical question as my needs and bank seem to be working pretty well so far (have not replaced a batt in 3-4 years and keep them trickle charged in off season called winter up here in NY).
Y'know, we have a pair of group 24 batteries, which I believe are nothing special, on our boat. They came with the boat. One had been on there when the boat was surveyed. The other was added by the PO prior to the sale. Before we start cruising, I'll have to Do Something About This, but, for now, they seem sufficient.

BTW, I believe we have the original Motorola 35 amp alternator still in service and I should add up our battery ah. to see if we are getting the 25% of amps to bank ratio from a 30+ amp alternator that Caulder recommends.
Another thing I'll have to look at before cruising, but I note that after starting the boat on "BOTH" the ammeter pretty quickly returns to zero. We have to motor for about 45 minutes before we can raise the sails. About 15 minutes less if the wind's right on our nose coming our of the creek. I imagine the batteries have recovered whatever they lost in that time.

Easy enough to check. Next time out I'll switch to just one battery (which I do, anyway) and note the time when we shut the engine down. After we're under way under sails for a half hour, I'll just slap that new DVM on the idle battery and note the voltage. I can do the same for the other battery upon returning to the slip.

(I've got a brand-spanking-new NewMar analog battery voltage meter I obtained at a garage sale, of all places, that I haven't gotten around to installing yet.)

Jim
 
#29 ·
Putting on the surveyors anal-retentive hat for just a second.
Marine alternators also have guards-covers-extra grounding to reduce the arcing/sparking thing that the internal brushes may cause. That being said....
i agree, if your bilge air handler works WELL and you ground the pajeebers out of it, you'll be ok. (opinion only! if you blow your silly azz up, don't sue, you won't get a flippin' dime outta me, ok? )

I think the "industry" call them an "10" series ("single foot mounting") alternator, and it does put out a paltry 30-35 amps if you stand on your left foot and shout hooty hoo. The motorola repalcement would be off an old ford or chrysler product, but I have seen some AC-Delco units on A-4's too.

I'd take it to a "shop" and have it rebuilt, there are some good regulators that are adjustable, for very little money, boosted my output to 45 amps @ 1500 RPM.
Cost to rebuild mine?
17.00 for diode pack,
15.50 for the regulator,
7.00 for brushes,
15.00 for bearings,
25.00 labor.
 
#31 ·
I completed an electrical rebuild on my Cal 9.2. Main additions were a ZAP Stop (diode and fuse combo) on the alternator, protects the alternator from an open circuit (cheap insurance over the cost of a marine alternator) ; added 2 LED battery voltage monitors ( 2 battery banks) and a digital AMP meter to monitor charge current and discharge current. After overnighting, the engine - alternator will put out 45 amps for a minute and then slowly reduce down to around 12 amps for an hour. The batteries increase from 12-12.5 up to 14 volts.
The shunt and digital meter were less than $20 and I just run it on 4 AA batteries in a battery holder. I use rechargable batteries and just swap them out when they start to run low. check it out at the cal 9.2 web site, you can find it with a google search.

I added a propane controler and a couple outlets also....
 
#32 ·
Thanks CardiacPaul, SemiJim.
The things I see in my future are an alternator rebuild and a built in voltage meter. It is summer up here in NY, it is time for sailing so this will wait for now.
I seem to remember reading that charging battery banks of 2 different types is not a good idea (eg, 1 group 27/31 deep cycle starting battery and 2 6V golf cart house battery bank for example) although I think this means that different 'types' of batteries (AGM, wet cell, etc) do not charge well together in the same circuit.
What has been working for us is 2 deep cycle batteries (Group 31), with a small solar trickle charger while at mooring and charging the batteries over our winter. Our current batts are 4 years old and still going strong.
I am just a bit curious as a friends 32' Endeavor came with a golf cart bank of 2 - 6v batteries which had to be replaced ($$$), quickly. I have found out that 'Bring Out Another Thousand' does somehow spell 'BOAT'.
 
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