Hood Sails - Vektron for Main

[DrB]

I contacted and gotten several quotes for new sails and think that I am going to go with Hood. They are the least expensive of all of the Big 4 in my area (Hood, Doyle, North, and Quantum), but sold me on their sales pitch re: quality since they supposedly use less resin and weave their own fabric.

For a sail for my boat (P10M), for a total up charge of $80 I can go from a 7.5 oz Hood High Tenacity Dacron Yarn to a 6.0 ounce woven Vektron sail.

I have a few questions:

1) I generally have heard that Hood has longer shape holding sails compared to the others' Dacron sails - T or F?
2) If #1 is true, why don't I see more Hood sails in my area? (New England - NE Mass Coastal)
3) Does the 6.0 ounce Vektron sail have any benefits/weaknesses over the 7.5 ounce version?

I generally will be doing performance cruising with my sails. I want to get the performance out of them, but won't be stressing them as one does for a racer to do so. However, I am not a reach out, reach back kind of sailor either. I want them to last 7 years and still have decent shape. We generally sail in winds 25 kts or less.

Thanks in advance for any input.


DrB

[Jeff_H]

As with many of these topics there can be a wide range of opinions but here is my take: (I appologize that some of this is cloned from an earlier discussion on this topic.)

1) I generally have heard that Hood has longer shape holding sails compared to the others' Dacron sails - T or F?

I would say that is false and has been false for decades. Hood was the first company to develop and employ tight weave, narrow panel dacron and so developed a reputation in the 1960's for production of a higher grade/ more durable dacron sailcloth than other weavers but that was only true in that era. Since then sailcloth technology has evolved enormously, and frankly Hood stopped evolving relative to the better weavers quite a while back.

2) If #1 is true, why don't I see more Hood sails in my area? (New England - NE Mass Coastal)
You don't see Hood sails because they are generally perceived as beiong expensive for the quality. The better sailmakers are all involved in high level racing programs and the big buck research from these programs filter down the ladder to 'normal' sails, with better cutting patterns and stress mapping, resulting in better performance across the board, less heeling in higher winds and a longer lifespan. Hood used to be a real leader, but for the past few decades they have been seen as dated technology, which is bad not only for racing but also for cruisers.

The other issue is their in-house production of sailcloth. Because most top lofts deal with a variety of fabric suppliers, they can choose from a very wide range of products picking exactly the right product for your boat. Because chose to limit themselves to making their own fabric, (at least last time I checked), Hood by necessity has a narrower range of fabrics to chose from and so is forced to shoehorn the boat to the fabric, even if the fit is less than perfect. Modern sail makers carefully chose more than the sailcloth weight but the distribution of the fibers, and then carefully orient the fabric to minimize stretch and inprove durability. With fewer choices its just plan harder to make the right choice.

The other issue is testing and rejection. With outside sail cloth suppliers, the big lofts custom order the fabric for your sail, inspect just that fabric and keep or reject anything that is not up to snuff at no cost to that loft. Hood has a bit of a conflict of interest since they are inspecting their own cloth and it costs them to reject it.

This issue not being as able to inspect and reject is one of the issues that impacts smaller lofts and bargain lofts as well. It may seem minor but in the long run it makes a huge difference in the life of the sail.

3) Does the 6.0 ounce Vektron sail have any benefits/weaknesses over the 7.5 ounce version?

The lighter Vektron should hold its shape better in a breeze and also hold its shape for a longer lifespan than the dacron which may loose its shape in as little as a year or two. The big advantage of the Vektron will occur at either end of the wind range. In light wind the light weight of the Vektron fabric should allow it to hold a good flying shape in lower winds near the bottom of the wind range and therefore allow you to sail in lighter winds and motor less. By the same token, the lower stretch characteristics of the Vektron means that the sail will stretch less in heavier air and so heeling will be reduced delaying the need for a reef until a higher wind range.

What I am not clear about is Vektron's creep charactristics. Creep is the opposite of memory, by which I mean that some fibers return to shape after being stretched and other are partially elongated and never quite return to their original length. A good example of this is Kevlar vs Spectra. Kevlar stretches very little and returns to shape once the stress is relieved. Spectra also stretches very little, but each time it stretches it only returns part way to its original length so that not so slowly over time the sail loses its shape. I am not sure where Vektron stands on this issue.

Then there is the white triangle issue. Good quality dacron will remain a white triangle for a very long time. By that I mean, the sail has long since lost its shape and so is a lousey sail but for better or worse it still is a sail. High quality high modulus fibers hold thier shape much, much longer and so are a good sails for way longer than dacron, but at some point in time the fiber breaks down and ceases to be even a white triangle. Generally high modulus fibers cease to be white triangles in less time than dacron. High modulus fibers and laminated fabrics have greatly improved over time, and the best materials come very close even in their durability as white triangles but to do so they require more care in flaking the sail when you drop it and keeping the sail cloth out of the sun when not in use. I am religious about getting sail covers on my high mod sails as soon as possible, and take the jibs off the furler at the end of weekends or longer cruises.

At the moment I am actually using a nearly 20 year old dacron white triangle delivery mainsail on my similar weight boat. It has been reworked many times and in moderate conditions has good shape. Its not so good at the wind range bottom, but is really poor at the top of the windrange. I am getting ready to with a laminated high-modulus sail from Quantum.


Which gets to the last lines of your question...."I want them to last 7 years and still have decent shape." I'd go high modulus if that is the case. If you use your boat a lot, and actually care about sail shape, and take decent care of your sails then there is far less likelihood of the dacron sail having decent shape in 7 years than a well made high-modulus fabric.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[ricoshay]

Greetings from England, the land of constant drizzle.

I have just read your thread posted earlier this year. Did you buy Vektron sails? If so, what are your thoughts? I am considering Vektron sails for my 27 ft Jouet for round the cans racing.

[DrB]

I did end up getting the Hood Vektron for our Main. So far I am happy with it, but there are some things that different with it compared to my old Dacron main.

1. As delivered the fabric is pretty "boardy". It doesn't have a soft feel yet, but the designer/sales guy said it would after about a year. It currently is difficult to flake.
2. Even though the Hood Rep came out and measured all the dimensions, when the sail is fully hoisted and luffed, the boom is not parallel to the water. The aft end of the boom is slightly elevated a few degrees (maybe up to 2 or 3 deg). I was always thought that the boom should be parallel when not loaded. I talked to the Hood Rep about this and he said an inch or two isn't significant along a 50 foot leech. When they sew stuff together, there is some dimensional variations in every sail. When I crank down on the mainsheet, I can get it to flatten the boom, but as soon as wind hits it, it wants to rise. If I had to order another one, I'd probably ask for another inch along the leech edge.

The sail appears to be well made. We asked for a "racer" or "Performance" roach and got one. The leech just clears the backstay. From time of order to delivery to my house was under 3 weeks.

I think that the Vektron material gives sail dimensional characteristics as say a Dacron laminate sail, yet will be more durable in the longer run and not have the laminate issues (delamination, mildew, etc.). I am thinking of Vektron for a new headsail. If I had to choose between "regular" Dacron and Vektron, I'd go with Vektron. The price difference was only $100 for our $2500 main.

I hope that this helped.

DrB

[ricoshay]

DrB

Thanks for posting the response. Suffice to say, I am reassured by your comments. I am about to order a #1 genoa and possibly a main in Vektron (depending on EO cost). In the UK, Hood supply a very limited number of non-Hood lofts with their fabric. They speak of Vektron in particular (and Hood fabrics in general) in very referential terms, and were marginally cheaper than Hood themselves. So I hope my expectations are not untoward. Is your main on sliders? If so, are you able to flake the sail over the boom successfully? I am advised that Vectran is hinge resistant in the sense that if you keep folding it in the same place it will not break as Kevlar is prone to. I would be pleased to hear your views on this.

[DrB]

ricoshay,

We have only had the sail for about 3 months and now it is currently stored for the winter in it's sailbag.

That being said, currently it requires two people to flake it, and the natural flakes are starting to form. It still doesn't self flake as we lower the sail even with help.

Often what I do is as my wife slowly motors into the wind, I drop the sail and loosely flake it on the boom and tie a few ties in it to keep it off the deck and out her line of vision. Once we get to our mooring and park the boat, we remove the ties, put all of the sail on one side of the deck and reflake it over the boom well. It takes about 3 minutes.

Our sail is a full main with 2+2 battens, loose foot. We have plastic sail slugs and none of the slugs is a roller bearing assembly. Still, we don't have any issues with the sail binding during raising or lowering even with the "boardy" material.

As far kevlar fiber breaking, from folding, I don't think that is the case.

DrB

[billyruffn]

rickoshay,

I have a Vectron (9 oz) main I bought in 2004. The 9 oz is because it's a big sail (+/- 60 feet on the luff, 20 feet on the boom) and that when I ordered it, I asked them to make it 'bullet proof'. Like DrB I find it a bit 'stiff' and hard to flake on the boom, but I have three reef points in the leech and this probably contributes to the problem. I have a Harken sail track / car system and have had no problems with stowing the sail.

The sail has about 15,000 nm on it and seems to be holding it's shape very well. (I'm not a 'performance' oriented sailor and so I don't push the sails as hard as some do -- I tend to reef early.)

The only problem I've had with the main was a tendency for the lower 3-4 grommets at the track car attachment points to rip out on almost every long offshore passage. I initially attributed this to the slatting that often occurs when sailing offshore in light winds and to an occasional hard jibe in high winds. My response to the problem was to have the grommets repaired as we went along. By 2006, in addition to the grommet problem, I was having difficulty getting the luff tape to tension properly. I took pictures of the sail set under different wind conditions and sent them to Hood for their assessment. Initially, they were stumpped and suggested I have a sail maker look at it when we laid up for the winter. When we got to Puget Sound I had a local sailmaker inspect the main. After seeing it set at the dock, she asked a rigger to measure the luff / mast bend carefully and then she compared these measurements with Hood's design drawings and then later, with the actual shape of the sail on loft floor. Her conclusion was that the cut of the luff was slightly off and the luff should be rebuilt.

At this point Hood-Newport stepped in and offered to do the work on their dime. They paid to have the sail shipped across country and back to Washington. They completely rebuilt the luff and upgraded materials and finish details at no cost to me. I paid for new, beefier batten cars, but everything else was 'on warranty'. I spoke with the owner of Hood-Newport loft during the process and he's attitude was: "It's our problem. We knew what you were going to do with the sail, and it should have been built with a stronger luff. We'll make it right."

I was really impressed with their commitment to their product's performance. The sail was two years old and has seen a lot of miles. My sense is that not many sailmakers would have done all they did to ensure my satisfaction with their product.

[idontwantanaccount]

The question I have on whether the Vektron is worth the extra cost has to do with the UV since vectran is widely known to rapidly degrade unless it is somehow protected from UV. I understand that the cloth contains both dacron and vectran fibers, but I wonder how the cloth will hold its shape over time if it depends on vectran. Has anyone had experience with one of these sails over a period of years?

steve

[idontwantanaccount]

I see my timing is as good as ever. Sent the reply only to find that someone answered before my question was posted! Thanks Billy!
Anyone else have experience with a Vektron sail?

Steve

[billyruffn]

Idontawanna....

Don't know about the UV issue w/ vectron fibers. There's relatively little vectron in the cloth. It's mostly dacron with a vectron thread "pin stripe" every 3/8 - 1/2". The vectron strengthens the cloth in one one dimension.

As you probably know, regardless of the fiber you want to keep the sail covered when it's not set. On the longevity issue I asked Hood for someone who had used the sails for five years or so and they provided me an email address. I checked it out with him and he said he was getting good performance with 5 year old sails.

Re the added cost.... I thought it was worth it for the main as the increased strenght let me use one ounce less in fabric weight. On a big sail that means a lot less weight aloft and easier handling of the sail when stowing it on the boom. I didn't go for vectron on the jib as the overall budget was tight.