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post #11 of 23 Old 09-03-2008
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Thanks...I use rings on many fittings on my boat (including the standing rigging) and have never had a failure but I have seen re-used rings bent all out of shape. Just wondered what the issue was. I like the lack of potential to rip my skin open....cleaning the teak from blood is such a chore!

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post #12 of 23 Old 09-03-2008
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Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
Thanks...I use rings on many fittings on my boat (including the standing rigging) and have never had a failure but I have seen re-used rings bent all out of shape. Just wondered what the issue was. I like the lack of potential to rip my skin open....cleaning the teak from blood is such a chore!
HA! Holystones...

(sorry for the divergence...stupid tangential thinking)

It's not whether you're paranoid...it's whether you're paranoid enough.

s/v Cloudman
1988 Sabre 30

Last edited by c40eb; 09-03-2008 at 01:16 PM.
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post #13 of 23 Old 09-03-2008
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Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
Just wondered what the issue was.
The issue was a ring used on the lower clevis of a head stay on a Pearson 36. The ring was undersized and was pulling back through the hole due to wear.

It was caught in time, only because of a badly worn furler line that needed replacement, but it snapped when trying to remove it. One or two more sails and it would have been gone. This was actually a combination of two problems. The clevis was slightly too long and the ring pin too small of a diameter. I suspect that when flying the spinnaker or running down wind the head stay tension would soften and allow the pin to move in the hole.

A properly sized ring pin (hard to find) or a properly sized cotter pin wouldn't have worn due to the lack of "slop" in the hole however the clevis still should have been about 1/8" shorter. That clevis was re-drilled and cut shorter by a machine shop and a correctly sized cotter pin installed and it was never a problem again.

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Last edited by Maine Sail; 09-03-2008 at 01:18 PM.
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post #14 of 23 Old 09-03-2008
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Thanks Halekai!

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post #15 of 23 Old 09-03-2008
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Originally Posted by halekai36 View Post
One important point no one has brought up is pin to hole clearance. We all know a clevis pin must be the right size for the hole it is fit into to avoid failure and maximize the contact surface area of the clevis pin to the hole in say the chain plate.

I don't like rings and neither does my rigger. Why? Pins are very hard to find in the right wire diameter for the clevis pin end holes they are intended to fit into. These holes need the proper size coter pin and that's easy as coter pins come in many diameters. A cotter pin or ring sized too small for the clevis pin hole IS a potential failure point!

I never reuse a cotter pin and I would never re-use a ring. Talk about being "penny wise pound foolish". My entire lifetime supply and assortment of stainless cotter pins cost me about $35.00 over seven years ago and I still have a LOT left.

The most important thing to consider when installing cotter pins and or rings is the fit in the hole. The pin should be as large as possible yet still fit into the hole.

Years ago I had a goose neck failure on my boom because someone at the factory used an undersized cotter pin that slopped around in the hole until it failed. I replaced it with another cotter pin, of the right size, and it's still going strong over ten years later. In fact I just passed my old boat while sailing yesterday..

I have yet to see a properly sized, bent and taped cotter pin fail though I'm sure it could happen. I have seen one ring failure due to it being undersized..
halekai36, I agree that size is important.

However, I have been using circular pins for many years and have never had anything happen that could be remotely attributed to a properly used circular pin.
I come across clevis pins now and then with holes so small that you need a tiny little cotter pin. I toss em.
I like a heavy duty pin or ring but not a tight one. I install stuff with the thought in mind that I am going to be the one having to take it apart again.
The problem with close tolerances with cotter pins is that sometimes it's a real pain to get them straight enough to remove. I've even had them gall and ruin clevis pins.
C. Sherman Johnson, (csjohnson . com), has just about every conceivable clevis pin, cotter pin or circular pin that you would likely ever have a need for.
And I bet SailNet is still a dealer for them.


This is pretty much how I always pin a turnbuckle.



Attachment 2227

The three circular pins on the right in the picture below are pretty much all I have ever had a need for. They are from smallest to largest the CSJ R-2, R-3, and R-5. The R-5 is so stout that it's tough to open with a thumb nail. I usually have to use my Leatherman to get it over the body of the turnbuckle.
The one on the left has a little pig-tail. Which in my opinion kinda defeats the purpose if you are looking for something that won't snag. I won't use those. However many products such as blocks come with them new. I don't usually remove them.
I also agree that it is not smart to reuse a deformed pin, straight or circular.

Last edited by knothead; 10-29-2008 at 11:55 AM.
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post #16 of 23 Old 09-03-2008
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Thanks Knotty...nice to know I wasn't completely crazy...at least I have company!

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post #17 of 23 Old 09-03-2008 Thread Starter
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Simple post and 13 really good responses, that what makes SN, and its members, special.
Halekai brought up a good point, it appears that most cotter rings I have seen are very thin and are not robust enough to handle the clevis pin hole. Never thought about it before but sizing is critical.
Sounds like if the cotter is off good quality, the right size, and inspected each time you sail, then it minimizes the chances of failure. Rings are easier to handle but it seems that regular pins are more robust.

Thanks for the info...........

John
s/v Daphne
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post #18 of 23 Old 09-03-2008
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Originally Posted by lsusailing View Post
Simple post and 13 really good responses, that what makes SN, and its members, special.
Halekai brought up a good point, it appears that most cotter rings I have seen are very thin and are not robust enough to handle the clevis pin hole. Never thought about it before but sizing is critical.
Sounds like if the cotter is off good quality, the right size, and inspected each time you sail, then it minimizes the chances of failure. Rings are easier to handle but it seems that regular pins are more robust.

Thanks for the info...........

John
s/v Daphne

Not too long ago, one of my customers lost his rig during a race.
It was determined that a cotter pin was lost, allowing one of the upper shrouds to detach itself from the chainplate.
There was some intimation that perhaps the cotter pin hadn't been opened enough. I was concerned because I was the last rigger to do any real work on the boat.
The thing was though, the boat was raced regularly and I had done the re-rig over 11 months prior to the accident.
I don't know how many people inspect their clevis pins and cotter pins everytime they sail but If you are racing, then you sure better check it once in a while. Heck, thats what all those deck monkeys should be doing as you motor out to the start.

BTW, If a pin had fallen out aloft, I probably would have replaced that rig at my expense. But there is no excuse for not inspecting one's chain plates and turnbuckles before racing.

I will reiterate. You can find circular pins as stout, (thick), as you would ever desire. Maybe not at your local WM. But like I said SailNet certainly can get you rings as strong as you want.
Check out the CSJ online catalog.
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post #19 of 23 Old 09-03-2008
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Originally Posted by halekai36 View Post
The issue was a ring used on the lower clevis of a head stay on a Pearson 36. The ring was undersized and was pulling back through the hole due to wear.
Not certain I'm reading you right, but it sounds like you're saying the ringding was being pulled through the clevis pin hole? If that's the case, I'd argue the clevis pin diameter was too small, as well.

This thread does remind me of an incident this spring. We were stepping the mast when one of our lower shroud's clevis pins fell out of its fork, bounced off the deck and *plonk* - into the drink it went. They all had had ringdings on them. So that's another case I've seen personally of ringdings working themselves off hardware. Related: Twice I've had a split ring on my keys manage to work itself off.

I think next time we're out at the boat I'm going to throw a bit of tape around all the ringdings.

Jim
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post #20 of 23 Old 09-03-2008
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Originally Posted by SEMIJim View Post
Not certain I'm reading you right, but it sounds like you're saying the ringding was being pulled through the clevis pin hole? If that's the case, I'd argue the clevis pin diameter was too small, as well.

This thread does remind me of an incident this spring. We were stepping the mast when one of our lower shroud's clevis pins fell out of its fork, bounced off the deck and *plonk* - into the drink it went. They all had had ringdings on them. So that's another case I've seen personally of ringdings working themselves off hardware. Related: Twice I've had a split ring on my keys manage to work itself off.

I think next time we're out at the boat I'm going to throw a bit of tape around all the ringdings.

Jim

There are some people, my partner being one of them, who run their rigs so loose that they actually have slack.
He claims that he is able to fine tune the rig while racing. I can't argue with his results because he usually wins. However, it's not a tactic that I would recommend to any of my customers.
In my opinion, your standing rigging should never, under normal conditions, be allowed to slacken to to point that your clevis pins move around freely.
There is a certain amount of movement on a headstay, but with the use of toggles for articulation, your clevis pins should never, under normal conditions, move around in it's hole.

Having a key ring work it's way off is really not the same thing as your standing rigging.
Still, as I showed in the picture, I use circular rings to lock the turnbuckle and a straight cotter pin for the clevis.
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