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Rebedding in the rain?

8K views 41 replies 13 participants last post by  GBurton 
#1 ·
Now that the rainy season is here (Vancouver) I'm finding that I have a few more deck leaks that need to be taken care of and I don't want to let them sit through a wet winter making things well below. Unfortunately this also means that there are very few dry days to do the work in. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to cover the work area until the bedding compound cures?

This hasn't been a problem when working around the companion way as I would just throw a tarp over the boom. Now my projects are taking me to harder to cover areas like just under the mast or rebedding chain plates and a couple stanchions. The tarp doesn't work as well as the water just runs down the mast or shrouds.

Thoughts?
 
#2 ·
You could always use shrink wrap tape or some other sticky tape to seal off a tarp thrown over the area in question. The mast is probably the most difficult thing to seal off, since it has the sail track or groove in it and the most irregular surface, but even that could be done with some creativity.

Another possible option is to tape a small plastic bag over the area locally... and use heavy waterproof tape, like shrinkwrap tape to seal it around anything that has to penetrate the bag.
 
#4 ·
I thought and have used 3M 101 in the rain.
 
#5 ·
Boatlife Lifecaulk :

Can be applied underwater for emergency repairs
Use as bedding compound or to seal hull and deck seams
Bonds to fiberglass, wood, metal, glass and itself
Can be applied to damp surfaces
Ideal for teak decks, deck hardware, hull fittings and underwater seams

Yes I have used it
 
#6 ·
I vote for butyl tape. I am currently re-arranging my lines to lead aft to the cockpit. Butyl tape seals instantly and there is no curing time. I am going to use it on my new hatch install next week.

Good luck, montenido
 
#7 ·
I strongly recommend switching to BoatLife. I have used it for years and it works well and can be applied in moist conditions.

By the way it gets all over everything, but WD-40 softens/dissolves it unti it cures. It was years before I learned that and it has made a world of difference.
 
#8 ·
I'm currently using Sikaflex-292. I like the sound of Boatlife Lifecaulk. At the very least I like the idea of being able to apply it underwater in emergencies. That said, I still think that for preventative maintenance I want to keep the work area dry. I'm woried about sealing moisture inside.

I don't have any experience with Butyl tapes. What are the pros/cons?

Thx SD. I'll see if I can find some shrink wrap tape and experiment with different ways of folding the tarp around the shrouds and deck to give me the best coverage.
 
#9 ·
I find boatlife very watery. Anytime I squeeze it out of the tube more watery substance than actual substance (caulk). It also takes a long time to cure. It is effected alot by heat as well. I used it to treat wet repairs (leaks as they happened) and was not to happy about the outcome. Just my anti - life caulk rant, I prefer the 3m products.
 
#10 ·
Just be aware that you shouldn't use POLYSULFIDE sealants with plastics, as they're generally not compatible. POLYSULFIDE sealants will attack most plastics. BoatLife LifeCaulk is a polysulfide sealant. :)
 
#14 ·
GBurton-

I am curious why you think it is okay to use Polysulfide sealants with plastics when even BoatLife says that LifeCalk shouldn't be used with plastics...
 
#18 · (Edited)
My boat...



My boat was built at the factory using butyl. It's the only boat I've never owned where almost 85% of the fittings are still original and have not needed re-bedding. Even the hull to deck joint is butyl as well as the aluminum toe rails. The boat does not leak one drop..

Here's a 30 year old genoa cleat that I removed look at the elasticity!

And the 30 year old BONE DRY core..


These days I use butyl for just about everything..

P.S. GBurton has a "red square" for reputation for a reason.:rolleyes:

Talk to the folks at Beckson, the port light company, and they will tell you EXACTLY what Dog said. Polysulfides will ATTACK and make many plastics brittle. It does a LOT more than just turn it yellow!!

Oh, and the venerable Don Casey apparently knos less than Mr. Gburton too:

Don Casey Article on Sealants (LINK)


Here's a direct quote from Don Casey on polysulfides and plastics:

"However, the solvents in polysulfide sealant attack some plastics, causing them to harden and split. Specifically, you must not use polysulfide to bed plastic windshields or plastic portlights--either acrylic (Plexiglas) or polycarbonate (Lexan). Don't use it to bed plastic deck fittings either, including plastic portlight frames. Plastic marine fittings are typically ABS or PVC, and polysulfide will attack both."
 
#16 ·
Depends on what you're bedding... if you're bedding chainplates, butyl might be a good one to go with...not too sticky, not too strong, but stays soft and seals very, very well. It's also good for genoa rails and fixed ports.
 
#17 ·
I have used LifeCaulk on plastic boats for over 20 years with great results. It is a bedding compound (i.e. a sealant) not an adhesive. I use it where there is a mechanical method of holding something in place and the interest is in sealing the junction to avoid leakage. The Lifecaulk flows well when first applied and stays flexible (so it doesn't crack) for many years. A prime example would be bedding a lifeline stantion. For bedding applications good adhesion can be a disadvantage since one assumption is that the attachment is not permanent.
Lifecaulk does not "attack" plastic, it just doesn't adhere well to it in all cases, and it can discolor some transparent plastics.
 
#20 ·
Lifecaulk does not "attack" plastic, it just doesn't adhere well to it in all cases, and it can discolor some transparent plastics.
Please try to be more careful in what you say or type as some might actually believe what you say and ruin an expensive part. Please check your "facts" before you post them!

Overview of Life-Calk Caulk Sealant - White, 2.8 OZ.

From the WM Site

"Versitile adhesive sealant
One-part, thiokol-based polysulfide sealant cures to a positive waterproof seal. Resists oil, brine, gas, water and most chemicals. Bonds to wood, fiberglass, metal and glass. No priming required except on oily woods such as teak.
  • Formulation: One-part polysulfide caulking/sealant
  • Recommended Usage: Fiberglass, wood, metal, glass; above and below water
  • Material Incompatibilities: Not recommended; glass to vinyl, ABS/Lexan, plastic hardware to fiberglass/wood
  • Adhesion Rating: Tensile: 80 psi; ultimate elongation 200%
  • Cure Time: Tack free: 24 hrs; complete cure: 10 to 20 days
  • Cleanup: Life-Calk Solvent, Model 139592
  • Removal: Mechanical remova"
 
#19 ·
On deck, you can build a small dam out of modeling clay or beeswax (sold cheaply as toilet bowl ring seals) so the water will not run into your work area, then just arrange something over that so rain can't fall directly in it. An alcohol wash (isopropanol) should remove any surface moisture from the working surfaces.
 
#21 ·
Not to get into a pissing match over caulking, but nowhere did the OP mention anything about plastic, I assumed when he said bedding he was referring to hardware bedding.

So unless his boat was built bt Revell, plastic is kind of a non issue
 
#23 ·
Also there are numerous polysulfied adhesive/sealants out there that ARE compatible with plastic, they are far better than anything mentioned here, just not as simple for the average weekend warrior to use for the quick fix or bedding

I know of one off the top of my head that is not only very flexible, it has a bonding strength of 1000psi
 
#25 · (Edited)
Let's not confuse!!!

Also there are numerous polysulfied adhesive/sealants out there that ARE compatible with plastic, they are far better than anything mentioned here, just not as simple for the average weekend warrior to use for the quick fix or bedding

I know of one off the top of my head that is not only very flexible, it has a bonding strength of 1000psi
Please lets not confuse Thiokol based Polysulfides with Polyurethanes!!! First polysulfides are not generally considered in the "adhesive sealant" category and secondly there is no commercially available polysulfide product that comes even close to 1000 PSI.

Life-Calk is rated at about 80PSI and 3M 101 has a tensile strength of 139 PSI and an elongation before break of 416%.

Polyurethanes =
3M 5200
3M 5200 Fast Cure
3M 4200

Boatlife Life-Seal (A Polyurethane / Silicone hybrid)

Sikaflex 295UV
Sikaflex 291
Sikaflex 291 LOT
Sikaflex 292
Sikaflex 252
Sikaflex 227 Fast Cure
Sikaflex 201US

Polysulfides =

3M 101
Boatlife Life-Calk

Polyether =
3M 4000UV
 
#27 · (Edited)
Use it carefully & sparingly as it contains silicone. While silicone does have it's specific uses on a boat I would steer clear of it.

I have seen chain plates that required re-bedding every few months because an owner at one point use silicone. The subsequent re-beddings would not hold and stick to the glass because it had been contaminated with silicone.

Once we thoroughly sanded the surfaces of both chain plate and the fiberglass we finally got a sealant to adhere.

Here's my own personal story on silicone and it's only part of why I avoid it like the plague.

In 1995 I purchased two Current Designs Solstice Kevlar sea kayaks. These were beautifully crafted vacuum bagged 18' boats that weighed about 45 pounds. I paid BIG money for these boats and loved them. Well after a few trips I was noticing water in the aft water tight compartment where your gear is stowed.

Kayaks are made in two pieces the deck and the hull then glassed together in a tricky process. To make a long story short I met the factory rep at one of my local retailers and we dunked the sterns of the kayaks into the demo pond vertically. I stuck my head in the aft compartment and there were about a dozen pin hole leaks squirting water into the boat along the seam. Both of my 3k boats were inflicted with this problem! The rep told me how to attempt a fix and I did with NO luck. I even went to a body shop supplier and got a special "silicone remover" that also did NADA.

After my unsuccessful attempt at repair we sent them back to the manufacturer for repair during the middle of the summer
. After about four weeks I got a call from the rep that the boats were un-repairable. Current Designs built me brand new boats and shipped them to me.

How did this happen? The story I was told is that a "motor head" who worked in the glass shop was using silicone tire gel on his lunch break to detail his tires on his car and after lunch contaminated a number of boats during the hull to deck assembly.

The moral of this story is that in my situation neither myself nor the manufacturer could fix this problem even with judicious sanding and the use of very dangerous chemicals. NOTHING would remove this silicone and prevent the fish eyes. Current Designs ate 6k worth of kayaks due to the carelessness of one employee. I don't know how many other boats were totaled but I'm sure it was more than just mine..

Silicone has very few legitimate uses on boats and generally is NOT allowed on board mine unless it is a very, very specific use.... The stuff is like nuclear waste (Nu-clee-er not Nuk-U-Lur) in that it's nearly permanent.:D

Life-Seal contains Silicone.;)
 
#33 ·
MS, I did not intended to be disrespectful to you or SD, I hold SD & your knowledge of such things in high regard.


Master Bond is manufactured in Hackensack, New Jersey and you buy direct though them.

They have 2 polysulfades adhersive/sealants that I know of ( maybe more ) that are rated for marine use along with auto & aerospace

One is EP21TP-2 and the other is EP21TPFL-1, neither of these could be found at the local chandlery on a Saturday morning but, if your project is planned in advance and you want to use the best possible products, they can be had.

Also, if the consumer does not know what to use, he/she could call them, tell them what you're doing, with what material(s), in what environment and they will tell you the best product to use
 
#35 ·
Now I understand..

Now I understand why they have a 1000 PSI rating. It's not solely a Polysulfide but rather a Polysulfide/epoxy hybrid mix with added epoxy.

The added epoxy is clearly where it gets it's 1000 PSI rating from. I'd like to see some elongation before break numbers but they don't give the data on the site. Have you asked them about elongation before break numbers??

It does seem a little too permanent for bedding and with the epoxy I would not guess it can match the flexibility of a straight Polysulfide but you never know. 3M 101 is roughly 416% elongation before break..
 
#36 ·
EP21TPFL-1ffice:eek:ffice" /><O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Substrate Compatibility <O:p></O:p>

CeramicGlass; ConcreteMasonry; Metal; Plastic; Porous Surfaces; Rubber or Elastomer; Wood; Dissimilar Substrates; Metal/Plastic/Glass/Ceramic/Elast.&Wood <O:p></O:p>

Industry <O:p></O:p>

Aerospace; Automotive; Electronics; Electrical Power or High Voltage; Marine; Military; OEM or Industrial; Semiconductors or IC Packaging; Chemical/Oil Processing/Metal Working <O:p></O:p>



Material Properties (Nominal / Typical) <O:p></O:p>



<O:p></O:p>

Process & Physical <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Viscosity (cP) <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Gap Fill (inch) <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Thermal <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Use Temperature (F) <O:p></O:p>

-65 to 250 <O:p></O:p>

Thermal Conductivity (W/m-K) <O:p></O:p>

0.2880 to 0.4320 <O:p></O:p>

CTE (µin/in-F) <O:p></O:p>

39 to 50 <O:p></O:p>

Mechanical <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Tensile (Break) (psi) <O:p></O:p>

250 to 270 <O:p></O:p>

Elongation (%) <O:p></O:p>

230.0 <O:p></O:p>

Electrical <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Resistivity (ohm-cm) <O:p></O:p>

1.00E12 <O:p></O:p>

Dielectric Strength (kV/in) <O:p></O:p>

360 to 450 <O:p></O:p>

Dielectric Constant <O:p></O:p>

6.80 <O:p></O:p>

Optical <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Index of Refraction <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Transmission (%) <O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
EP21TP-2<O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>

Substrate Compatibility <O:p></O:p>

CeramicGlass; ConcreteMasonry; Metal; Plastic; Porous Surfaces; Rubber or Elastomer; Wood; Dissimilar Substrates; Metal/Plastic/Glass/Ceramic/Elast.&Wood <O:p></O:p>

Industry <O:p></O:p>

Aerospace; Automotive; Electronics; Electrical Power or High Voltage; Marine; Military; OEM or Industrial; Semiconductors or IC Packaging; Chemical/Oil Processing/Metal Working <O:p></O:p>



Material Properties (Nominal / Typical) <O:p></O:p>



<O:p></O:p>

Process & Physical <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Viscosity (cP) <O:p></O:p>

5000 to 6000 <O:p></O:p>

Gap Fill (inch) <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Thermal <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Use Temperature (F) <O:p></O:p>

-100 to 300 <O:p></O:p>

Thermal Conductivity (W/m-K) <O:p></O:p>

0.2880 to 0.4320 <O:p></O:p>

CTE (µin/in-F) <O:p></O:p>

39 to 50 <O:p></O:p>

Mechanical <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Tensile (Break) (psi) <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Elongation (%) <O:p></O:p>

50.0 <O:p></O:p>

Electrical <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Resistivity (ohm-cm) <O:p></O:p>

1.00E12 <O:p></O:p>

Dielectric Strength (kV/in) <O:p></O:p>

360 to 450 <O:p></O:p>

Dielectric Constant <O:p></O:p>

4.00 <O:p></O:p>

Optical <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Index of Refraction <O:p></O:p>

<O:p> </O:p>

Transmission (%) <O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>
 
#39 ·
Well...

yes and I clearly could not find that data on the site. Polysulfides generally have lower elongation at break than do polyurethanes. 3M 101 Polysulfide is half as flexible as 5200 at 416% but even the best of this stuff is half of 3M 101 Polysulfide. 50% elongation before break is not enough IMHO on boat for bedding stanchions or chain plates. I have seen the stainless steel plate on some stanchions flex as much as 1/16" of an inch. If you have a 1/32" layer of sealant 50% does not satisfy this type of flex and it will likely fail. My bottom number that I'm comfortable with is around 300-350%.

I'd love to find a polysulfide with 600-800% elongation before break but that still had a low 140 PSI adhesion!! The only draw back to polysulfides is their restricted, compared to polyurethanes, elongation before break.

Thanks for that data..!
 
#40 · (Edited)
You bet, thanks for your opinion on that data


Question, if you used a adhesive/sealant with a 1000psi break point on stanchions or chain plates that where also though bolted, why would the elasticity be a factory
 
#41 ·
Question, if you used a adhesive/sealant with a 1000psi break point on stanchions or chain plates that where also though bolted, why would the elasticity be a factor
Let's further qualify that by saying a properly designed and fabricated stanchion base or chainplate, through-bolted to a properly reinforced section of deck or hull, with a proper backing plate...
 
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