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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Gear & Maintenance
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  #21  
Old 10-14-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Its interesting that one of the tests show that the claw did not even set...... reeeeelly??? Are they trying to tell me that a Bruce anchor will not set?
They experienced what they experienced. So, I guess, yes: Reeeeelly .

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Also in the PS test they used anchors of different weights.... ie a Bruce 22lb versus a Wasi 58lb.....what gives?
One presumes, and, in at least one of the articles they explicitly state, anchor weights are chosen based on manufacturer recommendations. How else should they do it?

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Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
The tests must be flawed. Many sailors swear by the Bruce.....and have used them in very "testing" conditions.
Maybe they are, maybe they're not. IIRC they're completely transparent wrt their testing methodology and their reasoning.

Jim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEMIJim View Post
Maybe they are, maybe they're not. IIRC they're completely transparent wrt their testing methodology and their reasoning.Jim
Yaa... there is something reeeeal transparent about an anchor test matching a 22 lb. against a 53 lb. Maybe the 22 lb. Bruce claw design just isn't heavy enough for a good easy set - don't know. But I've been testing 2 different 33 pounders on 2 different boats for 9 years and I just can't make it fail. Oh well .... I'll just keep trying.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christyleigh View Post
Yaa... there is something reeeeal transparent about an anchor test matching a 22 lb. against a 53 lb. Maybe the 22 lb. Bruce claw design just isn't heavy enough for a good easy set - don't know. But I've been testing 2 different 33 pounders on 2 different boats for 9 years and I just can't make it fail. Oh well .... I'll just keep trying.
The other question here, irrelevant of respective holding power, is why would anyone choose an anchor design that requires 53 lbs of mass when a competing anchor only recommends half that amount (or less) for your boat size? In other words, what's fundamentally wrong with the design that such a heavy anchor is needed?

Pound for pound is the best comparison among anchors made of the same material. We can choose whichever size we want based on the test outcome.
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Stan...would you suggest it fair to test a 33 lb bruce v. a 33lb. Fortress?
Same difference...some anchors use weight and design to hold. Others use design and materials to hold. You can't compare. You can only compare what displacement boats each is claimed to hold by the mfr. and then test the supposedly comparable anchors.
One flaw is that some mfrs. are agressive in their holding claims and others are more conservative. In a test, the conservatively rated anchors thus win.
Note...nothing here changes my opinion that the new-generation of designs are the way to go. Just saying that the old, proven designs probably work just fine in the bottoms where they have become favored choices over the years and in the weather most anchor out in.

I think I've said before my Delta dragged 3 times in 6 years...at no time was it tested to it's "test" limits. Each time it was either a bottom that it could not hold in or my own darned fault. I think the focus on ultimate "test" holding power may be too great and more attention should be paid to the initial holding in a variety of TOUGH bottoms....jello mud, thick kelp, hard packed sand etc.
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Don't use anything to read in PS as gospel truth... It is amateur at best, but they try.
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I can't remember where I saw it but somebody did a test here in Puget Sound with a variety of anchors and a variety of bottoms. The Bruce did not have all that great an ultimate hold BUT it was one of the most reliable and easily set anchors in the test. It is also one of the most popular up here based on what I see at the marina and seems to work for a lot of people. I guess I'm less concerned about tests and more concerned with results in the field.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
Stan...would you suggest it fair to test a 33 lb bruce v. a 33lb. Fortress?
Same difference...some anchors use weight and design to hold. Others use design and materials to hold. You can't compare. You can only compare what displacement boats each is claimed to hold by the mfr. and then test the supposedly comparable anchors.
One flaw is that some mfrs. are agressive in their holding claims and others are more conservative. In a test, the conservatively rated anchors thus win.
Note...nothing here changes my opinion that the new-generation of designs are the way to go. Just saying that the old, proven designs probably work just fine in the bottoms where they have become favored choices over the years and in the weather most anchor out in.

I think I've said before my Delta dragged 3 times in 6 years...at no time was it tested to it's limits. Each time it was either a bottom that it could not hold in or my own darned fault. I think the focus on ultimate holding power may be too great and more attention should be paid to the initial holding in a variety of TOUGH bottoms....jello mud, thick kelp, hard packed sand etc.
Well Cam.... your experience dwarfs mine but I'm an arguer So.....I understand what you mean about the Fortress for instance and actually I would welcome that test because with them - in my limited experience - it's getting the damn thing to set that's the problem. On my C320 I had to unhook my Bruce (and float mark) after a few days when the coasties and locals made me move away from a burning boat once so I figured I'd try my (I think 18 lb) Fortress. I spent a half hour trying to set it as it skipped over the eel grass that the Bruce - plop - set into. I gave up and fairly easily set a standard Danforth of about 25 lbs. which set fairly easily. Yes - I know it was only - 1 - test, unfair to the poor Fortress
Another reason I like the Bruce is anchoring outside the breakwater at Vineyard Haven Martha's Vineyard where the cruising guides say you - must use something sharp like a Danforth etc... because of the hard pan. Plop - set Bruce no problem. Now although I say Plop - Set I do a proper set and try my best to pull it out before I relax
So although I try to stay out of Religion and Politics arguments I'll still go on testing my Old Fashioned Bruce to see if I can drop my success rate to below 100%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
Stan...would you suggest it fair to test a 33 lb bruce v. a 33lb. Fortress?

Cam,

Can't speak for Stan, but I am talking about anchors made of the same materiel. As for the 33lb Fortress, it would be ridiculously large and cumbersome, so would not be very practical on the size boat that could get away with a 33 lb claw. Much the same can be said for a 53 lb Wasi -- except it would be the weight rather than the dimensions that would be impractical.

In other words, if I can only manage a 30 lb anchor due to my boat-size and ground tackle system limitation, in a perfect world I want the 30 lb anchor with the best holding power that will fit in my anchor roller or locker.

For some of us, the imperfect world rears its head in the form of $$, so we end up with next best (CQR/Delta/Claw) instead of a Rocna.
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Originally Posted by christyleigh View Post
Yaa... there is something reeeeal transparent about an anchor test matching a 22 lb. against a 53 lb.
"Transparency," in this context, means "nothing is hidden." So yes: The fact that it's made clear exactly what is used in the tests is transparent. Furthermore: If one mfgr. recommends a 22 lb. anchor for a certain size boat and the other recommends a 55 lb. anchor, are those not the anchors they should be using in the tests? Put another way: What will the consumer choose? Put still another way: Does it make sense to compare a properly-sized anchor against an over-sized anchor?

Jim
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My point is that one should not rush out and buy an anchor based on these tests....unless anchoring on the beach with a tractor (which one of the tests is based on) or on that particular stretch of ocean etc etc.

The recommendation of the manufacturer was not used as to what size boat was used in the test anyway. The same boat was used in all the PS tests....a trawler.

Transparent reasoning can be flawed


Quote:
Originally Posted by SEMIJim View Post
They experienced what they experienced. So, I guess, yes: Reeeeelly .

One presumes, and, in at least one of the articles they explicitly state, anchor weights are chosen based on manufacturer recommendations. How else should they do it?

Maybe they are, maybe they're not. IIRC they're completely transparent wrt their testing methodology and their reasoning.

Jim
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