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  #1  
Old 10-26-2008
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new pin holes in jib tracks

Can this be done and NOT hurt the structure/soundness of genoa/jib tracks, ie drill new holes for where my pin-stop carrs are? I got a new 155 the other day, and figured out the two holes that work, altho it would be nice to have holes at 1" increments tween the 4" holes from the factory.

I am hoping this will suffice until next year when funds are hopefully availible to install line control carrs.

Thanks
marty
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Old 10-26-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Can this be done and NOT hurt the structure/soundness of genoa/jib tracks, ie drill new holes for where my pin-stop carrs are? I got a new 155 the other day, and figured out the two holes that work, altho it would be nice to have holes at 1" increments tween the 4" holes from the factory.

I am hoping this will suffice until next year when funds are hopefully availible to install line control carrs.

Thanks
marty
Yep - did it on mine all good but You want to make sure that you do not drill through the "T"...(if you do that effects the structure). use one of those drill stoppers that keep the depth constant on the drill bit. Start them with a small bit, a medium and then the right size bit - as those tracks are pretty tough. Depth of the holes are pretty shallow but its a time consuming process...
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Old 10-26-2008
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Yes, it probably can be done, but it would probably require removing the tracks from the boat. You'd probably need a jig with a drill press or milling machine to drill the holes properly.

However, IMHO, you'd be far better off upgrading the genoa fairlead cars to line-controlled fairleads instead. That would give you unlimited adjustment of the fairlead positions, rather than the fixed ones... and it is probably far faster to do.

From a post by Don Guillette, author of the book Sail Trim Users Guide:

Quote:
The most important jib sail trim control is the fairleads and here's why. There are 4 things sail trim controls are controlling and they are draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Do you know how many of the 4 elemts are controlled by the fairleads? ALL OF THEM and that is why the fairleads are the most important jib sail trim control.

Do you know how many sailors use the fairleads to adjust the jib - probably about 50%. The rest just set them and forget them. If you have a masthead rig and you don't use the fairleads to adjust your jib your boat will never perform to top efficency. For one specific point of sail and wind condition you'll be right on and wrong for all others, like the broken clock.
Garhauer makes a genoa car upgrade kit that is reasonably priced and works quite well. I installed them earlier this year on my boat. BTW, those two holes probably will only work in a fairly small percentage of the conditions you'll be using that sail under, as Don points out. Upgrading to and using line-controlled genoa fairleads makes a lot more sense than adding pin stop holes to the track.

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Oh Marty - one thing - time versus effort versus money. T tracks are fairly inexpensive - may be worthwhile just to replace them as the amount of time you will spend with the "drill baby drill" approach - may not be worth it. Even when you get the adjustable genoa cars - they still have to pop into the holes to maintain the tension unless you go with a dual forward and aft adjustment of the genoa car. The simple method like the one I added to "HG" uses the wind in the sail to pull it forward and tension on the adjusting line to hold / pull it back (mine is the Harken setup).
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Jody—

The sails will generally pull the genoa fairleads aft... not forwards...since the sheets are under tension... and moving the cars aft is what the forces on the sheets would do. All the line-controlled genoa fairlead setups I've seen have the lines to pull the cars FORWARD...not aft. If your setup has the adjusting lines pulling the fairlead car aft, I'd love to see a photo of it—cause I have no idea how that would possibly work.

Here's an image of the Harken setup:



Quote:
Originally Posted by artbyjody View Post
Oh Marty - one thing - time versus effort versus money. T tracks are fairly inexpensive - may be worthwhile just to replace them as the amount of time you will spend with the "drill baby drill" approach - may not be worth it. Even when you get the adjustable genoa cars - they still have to pop into the holes to maintain the tension unless you go with a dual forward and aft adjustment of the genoa car. The simple method like the one I added to "HG" uses the wind in the sail to pull it forward and tension on the adjusting line to hold / pull it back (mine is the Harken setup).
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Old 10-27-2008
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Quote:
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Jody—

The sails will generally pull the genoa fairleads aft... not forwards...since the sheets are under tension... and moving the cars aft is what the forces on the sheets would do. All the line-controlled genoa fairlead setups I've seen have the lines to pull the cars FORWARD...not aft. If your setup has the adjusting lines pulling the fairlead car aft, I'd love to see a photo of it—cause I have no idea how that would possibly work.

Here's an image of the Harken setup:


I realize that is how Harken describes the setup - I have now did the reverse because when I had it set up that way (as illustrated) - I didn't have the control I wanted when using anything less than a 150. Having the block aft, and the car reversed - allows wind on the sail to move the genoa car forward (when having reduced sail area) when releasing the tension on the adjusting line just enough to release the pin to allow it to go forward. To be honest haven't tested it with the reverse setup and will be installing another set of blocks on the track so I can change the setup at whim...

The problem really with the setup as illustrated in the diagram that it assumes that tension is on the tack line - when in some cases depdning on sail shape and size of sail - not necessarily viable.

Thats been my experience with using the setup in the diagram...
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I do agree that new tracks/carrs etc are in the future, BUT< being as this week is NOT the future..........I was hoping three holes per side for this weekends regatta would suffice. Yes I have a drill with a stopper, not to mention a 3/8" drill with a mini drill press availible to me too. So with this in mind, drilling the holes should not be too bad of an issue.

Next summer is the new T-track, carrs, line controls etc. At this time, I am thinking Harken, but being as Garhauer has them at about half the price.........about 4-500 for my boat vs closer to 1G for Harken.....hmmmmmmmm

Thanks for comments.
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Jody,

Thinking about your issue........OUCH.....note to self, quite thinking, pulls brain muscles.........Harken recomends "typically" anyhow from what I have seen, is a bungy cord that will offer some tension on the aft side of the car to help it pull back if need be. Altho I have seen some setups with lines running aft too, to possibly work in your suggested case.

Anyway, initially when I do the line carrs etc, I am going to skip the rear line/bungie option, and if needed, add it later. Otherwise, I found while crewing on a C&C 115 for the NOODS and the first Ballard monay night series, that at least on that rig, rear lines/bungies were not needed to move the carr back ward.

For the new 155, I found that the approx 4" from one pin hole to the next was good, but really needed a few stops in the middle to get proper leech curve.

So any way, as I said before, hopefully I can get some holes drilled before the comming weekends regatta so we have a bit more options with the new 155 for adjustments.

Marty
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Marty - Its a tricky situation..their is the camp that says you have to do this way. For example on my redoing all rigging + deck layout - the synopsis of the pros is reduce the lines. That is all great and good but if it sacrifices control or having the ships operating procedures altered to adjust for a "disclaimer"... I'd rather have the extra line.

Most of my setup is derived from AC / Ocean race setups. Forward of the cockpit the spin / jib lines can be interchanged depending on number of crew / race mode desired. The deal is when shorthanded - everything led aft. When having a race crew (and you owe me some time on that)... everything is led forward of the dodger that takes everything less the main sheet trimming and traveler out of the picture.) and then is handled at the mast area. I am one of the few boats with a semi racing pedigree to go this route and it confuses the hell out of folks working on the boat because they have mindset you are a racer or a cruiser..Not on my boat..one has to go both routes...

Same thing I look at Genoa track...

It has to be balanced or adjustable..

Your new carbon sail is 25% larger than my jiblet you are using. That means depending on sail config / track config - everything of what you can get out of it..

Hence how I found the fallacy in the Harken recommended setup - because the jiblet you are using that I commandeered(well I owned it) .. didn't adjust with the Harken layout... not one iota and I can care less if this is "everyone else does this".. because well I see everyone off a J boat that crews my boat thinks close hauling is the answer to speed..

You'll do ok with the interim solution - interestedin seeing what the carbon foil is about..

Otherwise DAK *drunk at keyboard*...

See ya on Friday..
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Jody, sounds like you're doing to HG that I have been attempting to do with Amoretto. Make it so you can control everything easily, and get the most speed etc. Not to mention, when it is just Sheryl and I, be it a J&J or equal style race, or a dinner evening cruise to Kingston, ways for us to handle this easy enough etc with out having to go forward.

With the new 155, it is pretty much a deck sweeper. And when we are close hauled, it does not take make carr movement to change the leech curve. Hence wanting to drill the holes for this weekend. Hopefully this will allow me to get somewhere between a really curved foot and tight leach, to a really straight foot touching the inward stays, curved leech, to something in between. right now it is either or! We could have used an in between setting.

Then with the jiblet on a tack line, my old 135 with a high cut clew, 4" of tack movment is probably like 1" with this new 155 being as close to the track as it is.

Now it is which brand ete to choose from, carr I want like I have, ie the ability to run two sheets thru it, and movement thru a line. Possibly a barber hauler option down the road too. Will figure that one out as I go.

Yes I "DO" owe you some crew time! Anyway, need to go to SYC's page and register this AM before heading to vashion.

Marty
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