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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
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  #11  
Old 11-06-2008
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OK..Val...no subsciption...so can you give headline?
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PS rated the rockna and the Manson Supreme roughly equal but rated the Manson plow much higher for fast setting.
That was the scope of the article...fast setting. tests done by Evans Starzinger down in the Beagle.
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Old 11-06-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xort View Post
PS rated the rockna and the Manson Supreme roughly equal but rated the Manson plow much higher for fast setting.
That was the scope of the article...fast setting. tests done by Evans Starzinger down in the Beagle.
Xort,

It was a Manson Claw or "Bruce style" not a plow. Sometimes I wonder why I subscribe to PS. Did you happen to read that article and look at the pictures? Not to mention that Beth and Evans, two of the testers use a Bruce who could clearly be defined as having a bias towards the Bruce style.

I love how they created a new "measurement" for tip surface area for a "partial set" situation like when the claw was laying on it's side with only one ear buried? How convenient!

They were setting 2:1 scopes on a FROZEN, rocky beach for the short scope tests.. Who really sets in 2:1 anywhere in the real world??? I understand why they did it but it really holds no validity in the real world. I have set on 4:1 and 3:1 in mud and sand bottoms before but never a frozen sand/rock bottom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PS
"Testers looked at each anchor’s design and measurements, as well as its setting and veering performance on a frozen-sand beach covered with large rocks and on a sand/ mud beach"


In the other "long scope" tests the three anchors set within inches of each other (a 15" spread). They actually had the nerve to declare a winner? Any anchor that can set on a FROZEN rock strewn beach is a winner in my book especially when all the anchors set within 15 inches of each other! The real gap in this model is that they stopped at 1000 pounds of pull on anchors weighing OVER 100 pounds! WTF ??? I guess the lack of any real pull actually benefits the claw style, and favors it, considering their comment bellow on sizing.

This "test", if you can call it that, was really nothing more than a "setting" and "veering" tests; at 10:1, 2:1 and veers..

Set distance:

Manson Supreme 11' 11" Manson Ray Claw 11' 5" Rocna 12' 8"

I guess if you want to split hairs over a few inches in setting on a rocky frozen beach, when they never really loaded up the claw to see if it would break out, then this is a "valid"? test?? 1000lbs of pull on a 100+ pound anchor is NOT a valid anchor test!

I liked this comment the best:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PS
"Testers tried pulling several lighter anchors—an 88-pound Manson Supreme copy, 55- and 45-pound Deltas, and a 45-pound CQR—on this beach, and none dug in. They just skated over the rocks and frozen sand."


Really? Now there's a big surprise...

BTW what is a Manson Supreme copy? Isn't the Manson Supreme already a copy?? Clearly some copies are not as good as others because the real Manson Supreme did set!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PS
"The Ray does make an excellent general-purpose anchor for serious cruisers likely to encounter such challenging conditions regularly; be sure to select a size that is one or two sizes larger than the equivalent roll-bar anchor."
ONE or TWO sizes larger than the comparable roll bar anchor!!!??? So if a 33Lb Rocna or a 35lb Manson Supreme will work you may need a 44Lb or 66Lb Claw??? I guess the price savings / percieved value of the Manson Ray Claw over a Manson Supreme or a Rocna would be easily eclipsed buy the cost to install a windlass to haul up that 66 pounder when a 33 pound Rocna or 35Lb Manson Supreme would have done fine without a windlass..??

I really need to let my subscription lapse PS it's getting worse...
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 11-06-2008 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 11-06-2008
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One other point... the 15 kg Rocna set in the Sail magazine tests and required over 4000 lbs. to break it out IIRC. So, testing an anchor three times as heavy with less than 25% of the load... is not a real test IMHO.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2008
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Guys, I'm not sure I can respond too much to the queries re the PS test without getting into trouble with Cam... but briefly, frankly we're not too concerned about it. The issues are fairly obvious. No repeat trials, testing by pulling with a boat windlass (?), frozen bottom (hey that wasn't part of the design criteria! - who said anything about anchoring in water frozen solid?), oh and there were some blatant inaccuracies such as the Rocna's tip weight (unless PS have corrected that after requesting our input - I haven't actually seen the published article, only the proof they provided us). EDIT CAM

Thanks to those who have sent pics already, the collection is starting to look like one. Keep 'em coming, I know that those other owners with the same boats will highly appreciate their presence.
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Last edited by camaraderie; 11-07-2008 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Compeitive disparagement
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Old 11-07-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
OK..Val...no subsciption...so can you give headline?
Well, at the risk of PS getting ps'd off, here's the whole thing copypasted.

I was surprised that even at the "double-sized" weight for the test boat, there was a difference...an unexpected difference. Personally, it's not that the Rocna style did poorly in the fairly unusual test conditions, but that the Bruce-style did well. The old Bruce has taken a lot of criticism in the last few years as the fabulous new and complex designs have emerged, but maybe it's still worth having a properly sized one aboard.

I agree with the above criticisms of the test as pretty damned artificial and selective, but as I said, it's intriguing to note not what the Rocna and Manson did (which is anchor well), but what the Ray didn't do (fail, skip over the frozen beach, veer out, etc.)

Personally, while I haven't decided on my ground tackle choices for world cruising, I will go with the Earl Hinz/Hal Roth notions that a size up is never a bad thing, and that a selection of anchors aboard is good seamanship.

EDIT CAM...Copyright violation.

Last edited by Valiente; 11-07-2008 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 11-07-2008
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Aahhh.....here we go! This is rich - you saying that Beth and Evans have a bias toward the Bruce when you insist that they are junk ha ha.

All the tests are flawed, even the ones performed by Rocna. Get it?





Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Xort,

It was a Manson Claw or "Bruce style" not a plow. Sometimes I wonder why I subscribe to PS. Did you happen to read that article and look at the pictures? Not to mention that Beth and Evans, two of the testers use a Bruce who could clearly be defined as having a bias towards the Bruce style.

I love how they created a new "measurement" for tip surface area for a "partial set" situation like when the claw was laying on it's side with only one ear buried? How convenient!

They were setting 2:1 scopes on a FROZEN, rocky beach for the short scope tests.. Who really sets in 2:1 anywhere in the real world??? I understand why they did it but it really holds no validity in the real world. I have set on 4:1 and 3:1 in mud and sand bottoms before but never a frozen sand/rock bottom.



In the other "long scope" tests the three anchors set within inches of each other (a 15" spread). They actually had the nerve to declare a winner? Any anchor that can set on a FROZEN rock strewn beach is a winner in my book especially when all the anchors set within 15 inches of each other! The real gap in this model is that they stopped at 1000 pounds of pull on anchors weighing OVER 100 pounds! WTF ??? I guess the lack of any real pull actually benefits the claw style, and favors it, considering their comment bellow on sizing.

This "test", if you can call it that, was really nothing more than a "setting" and "veering" tests; at 10:1, 2:1 and veers..

Set distance:

Manson Supreme 11' 11" Manson Ray Claw 11' 5" Rocna 12' 8"

I guess if you want to split hairs over a few inches in setting on a rocky frozen beach, when they never really loaded up the claw to see if it would break out, then this is a "valid"? test?? 1000lbs of pull on a 100+ pound anchor is NOT a valid anchor test!

I liked this comment the best:


Really? Now there's a big surprise...

BTW what is a Manson Supreme copy? Isn't the Manson Supreme already a copy?? Clearly some copies are not as good as others because the real Manson Supreme did set!



ONE or TWO sizes larger than the comparable roll bar anchor!!!??? So if a 33Lb Rocna or a 35lb Manson Supreme will work you may need a 44Lb or 66Lb Claw??? I guess the price savings / percieved value of the Manson Ray Claw over a Manson Supreme or a Rocna would be easily eclipsed buy the cost to install a windlass to haul up that 66 pounder when a 33 pound Rocna or 35Lb Manson Supreme would have done fine without a windlass..??

I really need to let my subscription lapse PS it's getting worse...
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Old 11-07-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Aahhh.....here we go! This is rich - you saying that Beth and Evans have a bias toward the Bruce when you insist that they are junk ha ha.

All the tests are flawed, even the ones performed by Rocna. Get it?

GBurton,

I NEVER EVER SAID ANYWHERE that Bruce anchors are junk! Plese don't put words in my mouth which I did not say.

In fact I have said on many forums they were one of the most reliable setters I ever owned other than the Spade, Mansons Supreme and the Rocna. I have said that they have lower holding at a specific weight when compared to some other anchors of a specific weight and it is wise to upsize them. I have also said that I never slept very well on one in a blow due to the lower holding power to size ratio. Of the two genuine Bruce anchors I owned both were up sized and I did still drag both of them more than once even on long scope but they always re-set before I got ont the rocks.

Also I have said, and been critical of, every anchor test going including the ones Rocna has clearly won! Get it!
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  #19  
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Sorry - your previous frothing about all anchors not rocna or spade must have biased my perception of your bias.

Carry on

P.S. - did you see the results of the polysulphide on plexiglass test?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
GBurton,

I NEVER EVER SAID ANYWHERE that Bruce anchors are junk! Plese don't put words in my mouth which I did not say.

In fact I have said on many forums they were one of the most reliable setters I ever owned other than the Spade, Mansons Supreme and the Rocna. I have said that they have lower holding at a specific weight when compared to some other anchors of a specific weight and it is wise to upsize them. I have also said that I never slept very well on one in a blow due to the lower holding power to size ratio. Of the two genuine Bruce anchors I owned both were up sized and I did still drag both of them more than once even on long scope but they always re-set before I got ont the rocks.

Also I have said, and been critical of, every anchor test going including the ones Rocna has clearly won! Get it!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post

P.S. - did you see the results of the polysulphide on plexiglass test?
No I did not care to give us a link?
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