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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Gear & Maintenance
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  #21  
Old 01-23-2009
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Cam...yes...6 volts are AGM glass mat also.

Jos. 6 volt batteries take up 1/2 rooom of 12 volt group 31 usuallly. Only thing you have to watch out for is the height on wet cell if you go that way which is by far the cheapest. We have glass mats so they can be laid on their sides, and they charge with very little heat and no gas. . The advantage of the 6 volt batteries is that they have twice the amp hours or close to it. Two of our six volts connected to form one 12 volt has the amp house reserve at 25 amps of 200 minutes about what two group 31 have taking up half the space of the 2 group 31s. 4- 6 volts taking up the same space as 2 group 31 have double the amps, thus making it a great way to increase you reserve without taking up more room. All this still points to your doing an amp "diet" analysis of your usage. Refrigeration ( the greatest amp draw on our boat) will use 3-4 amps per hour in the heat of the summer unless well insulated equating to 80-100 amps approx in a 24 hour period. The 400 amps the 4 -6 volts give us allows us to go 3-4 days without ever starting the engine to charge or "plugging in" depending on how much we run the alder barbour. We also reinsulated to refrigerator last year and saw the power usage drop greater than 1/2 with simple insulation. We also are switching gradually over to LED which use a miniscule amount of amps compared to other lighting.s That allows us at least two nights out in a row without significatly turning on the engine. (rememeber you never discharge below 50%) or 200 amps.

I am no way an authority on this,A lot of hat I have learned I have read about or listened here to saildog, Cam and jeff H..**:**) I have tried to improve one of my systems each year on my boat which I bought used 15 years ago. Last year it was the electrical. I rewired everthing, new blue sea breakers, and increased its capacity greatly with the new batteries and the new charger.Next year possibly a wind machine. This year its the head, holding tank, hoses , mascerator and adding a wheel autopilot.

My comment again in buying a charger is to look down the road and get a good one with the highest charging capacity you think you will need so you dont have to replace it before it outlives it usefullness not its capacity. We mounted our charge on the bulkhead next to our nav station which is in front of our qurterberth like yours. Batteries are located in quarterberth as is the 1/2/both switch and inverter( We have a small 700 one hardwired for watching DVD Movies on a 17" Labtop).This way the charger is close to tthe AC panel and close to the batteries and doesnt require a long length to be wired
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  #22  
Old 01-23-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckgreenman View Post
Here's my $.02.

I used a ProMariner dual bank charger. You can pick them up for under $200 at Bass Pro Shops. They also make a 3 bank if you prefer to put your starter battery on a 3rd bank instead of combining it on one of the existing ones.

Here's the link:
http://http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_97825____SearchResults
I bought the same unit last summer. Might have taken me 5 minutes to install. 3 stage charger. Ignition protected. Fused outputs. 3 Battery type; Flooded, AGM and Gel. Great unit. CDN$130 at Vaughn Mills Mall location of Bass Pro Shop.
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  #23  
Old 01-23-2009
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Chef...thank for the clarification on the AGM's!
Your reference to size and capacity in your latest post is a bit confusing as the 25 amp minute capacity is not one that is used to compare marine deep cycle batteries. Instead the 20 hour rate is used so lets take a look at decent group31's vs T-105's in that regard first size.


Battery GroupUnits
21242730H314D8DT105GPL4CL16
Voltage12121212121212666Volts
Length8.1910.2512.0613.51320.7520.6210.3810.3511.62inches
Width6.816.816.816.816.728.7510.957.137.067inches
Height8.758.878.759.259.449.8810.1711.211.5717.56inches
Note: Dimensions are approximate and vary by manufacturer. Consult manufacturer data sheets for exact dimension of container, location and type of terminals, etc.

The cube of a group 31 is 825cu. inches or 1650 for a pair. A pair will typically deliver around 210ah's at the 20 hour rate.
The cube of a pair of T105's is 1658 cu. inches and typically a good set will deliver around 225 amp hours. NOT much difference. If ONE 6V battery fails you have no battery bank. If one 12V battery fails you have the other. This is why I recommend T105's only be used if you can fit in four of them...and as you can see, 4 T105's take up TWICE the room of TWO group 31's so Jos does NOT have the room for that scenario. There is no free lunch and while there are very nice 6V batteries that provide excellent life cycle advantages they do not provide significantly more ah's in less space.

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Last edited by camaraderie; 01-23-2009 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 01-23-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
...
If ONE 6V battery fails you have no battery bank. If one 12V battery fails you have the other. This is why I recommend T105's only be used if you can fit in four of them...
This bears repeating. If you go with Golf Cart batteries, only do so if you are going to use four or more.
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Old 01-23-2009
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batt chargers / inverters / old boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by josrulz View Post
By the way, is it totally weird that this boat doesn't have a battery charger? My surveyor said it's not THAT strange, and certainly possible it was an "option" back in 1984. I'm just curious.
No, it's not that strange. My 1986 Newport 28 didn't come with one. My 86 O'day 35 didn't come with one from the factory either. In the early 80's there were a fair amount of boats that didn't come with A/C electrical, hot water, or even pressure water. I never missed the lack of charger on the Newport. When we stayed in marinas we used A/C power so we didn't need a batt charger.

My one comment to you is to consider if you want / need an inverter. The PO of my O'day installed a heart (now Xantrex) inverter / charger. While an inverter / charger is significantly more money than a charger only, there are a lot of benefits.

Anyway, if you think you'll need an inverter you should think about doing it just once.

Barry
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Old 01-23-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
This bears repeating. If you go with Golf Cart batteries, only do so if you are going to use four or more.
Cam and sailingdog, we're definitely on the same page regarding the 4 x 6V minimum. At this stage, assuming my current batteries are in good order for now, I'll just put the two 12v together for the house bank when I add the single starting battery.

I'm not even sure where that starting battery would go--perhaps in the next compartment aft from the battery compartment under the Q-berth--I believe there is more room there.

If I add any additional batteries, I'd have to start splitting them up--some in the cockpit locker, some in the stock location. This is a) because of space, and b) because of weight.

I'm hoping that switching to efficient LED or flourescent bulbs and making the refrigeration as efficient as possible will mean 2 12v will be enough house bank for me. But time will tell. We don't even have a fridge now, so we should be fine for the time being.

In the meantime, I will indeed add a charger that will work for the future intended use, and otherwise stick with the system stock. Afterall, we're just trying to get the boat home this Spring!

We're leaving in a few hours to visit the boat this weekend, take inventory, and do some basic cleaning. I'll check out how the wiring is routed and see where a charger could go. One S34 owner put it under teh Q-berth in the same compartment as the hot water heater (about 12-18 inches away). Are there any issues with that? It would be convenient for wiring.
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Old 01-23-2009
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No issues with that Jos. The one place I know the ABYC does not permit them is directly over the batteries themselves. Otherwise...ease of wiring and a dry place with a little open space to dissipate any heat shold be just fine.
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  #28  
Old 01-23-2009
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Jos,

My 85 Jeanneau 30 does/did not have a charger either! Ended up with a 20amp yellow thing that everyone recommends the brand on...xanthrax?heart something? I am recalling someone a page or two back installing a 40A version.

Anyway. On my land RV I put two Interstate IU2900's? not sure of the IU part, but the 2900 model is what I remember. They were 2 BIG 6V batteries about the size of a 12V size 27 but taller, giving me some 270 or 540 ahrs. They're downstairs, I can verify the model etc. I did not have any issues with a dead one, but only used them two yrs, and planed on putting them in my boat, but have not cruised enough on the hook to really worry about the lack of amps from my house size 24 12v bat, along with the same size for the starting battery.

I've hooked my two bats up on seperate outputs, I am recalling that I can get 20 amps to one bank or the other if that one is "dead" for lack of better term vs the other fully charged. From my use, works fine. Like a lot of things, it may not work for you or cam or ________. When these batteries do go, it will probably force me to do something with the house bats, I would like a bit more reserve, but being as I race the boat more than cruise, and extra 90 lbs of batteries is not something I relish adding to the boat right now! So i may end up with 2 or 3 12V batteries, or a single 12V, and a 2nd pack of two 6/12V batteries that I put on when cruising, and take off when racing. Not sure of your useage, but something like I am toying with may work for you also. If someone thinks this is totally screwy, let me know too, with a why so I can see the reason. Other than the taking two batteries on and off upon occasion..........

Not sure of your floorplan, but I put my charger on the nav desk, as the house battery is under the nav seat, and motor battery in engine compartment.

Lots of ways in reality to do things, just choose what may/should be best for you.

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Last edited by blt2ski; 01-23-2009 at 05:22 PM.
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  #29  
Old 01-24-2009
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Thanks everyone. We're at the boat today, actually. Had a good day cleaning and inventory. Had one set-back though. The dodger had been partially folded still on the frame by the yard, leaving some "folds" in the side windows. I had noted that mentally, and knew that it could damage the dodger, but it would be risky to move it in the cold.

Unfortunately, while trying to clean some spider webs off the dodger, I had a brain lapse and moved it some, and one of the windows completely blew out. I never would have left the dodger in that position for winter (it was done by the yard before I owned the boat), and I knew better than to move it. So I'm irritated with myself to say the least. Now we'll need at least on large new window for the dodger, if not a full replacement set of windows. Argh...
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Old 01-24-2009
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Josrulz, I have a 1977 Sabre 34 MkI with the following upgraded electrical equipment installed by the PO that work extremely well:
Alternator - AmpTech S125e
Battery Charger - Truecharge 20
Inverter - Xantrex 700 watt
Smart Regulator - Balmar MC 612
Monitor - Link 10
Batteries - (1) Engine AGM
(2) House Series 27

The boat is in Rock Hall, MD and you're welcome to contact me if you'd like to know more mgmhead at msn dot com.

Rhythm is an amazing boat and I love to show her off.
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