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  #21  
Old 04-06-2009
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Jandy, I cannot leave this alone. The more I read, more the fog thickens.
Confessions first: I started, own and act as Chairman of an ISP delivering broadband via wireless, many years ago using 802/b, now WiMax, and we install home networks all over the place. I have put WiFi on my boat.

Your solution is way expensive and unnecessary. To establish WiFi onboard and receive/transmit, you need an AP (Access Point) or Bridge from almost any major manufacturer. Cost $100 or less. End of story, until you want stronger signals.

For stronger signals, buy a bigger, passive antenna and run coax to the AP. I went overboard and got a 21dB round beam, which should theoretically receive and transmit a couple of miles with the above AP. You can do with less.

The AP point already has (cabled) Ethernet out, so to hook up PCs and the like you really need no more. For pure luxury, I added an Airport Express to run an indoor wireless net, but on a small boat, is that needed?

Apart from the very large antennas, all this is standard home equipment, and inexpensive. To me, the attempt to sell "marine" systems is profiteering on some innocent sailor's belief that radio waves must be different at sea. Bunkum all the way. Some might say "what about voltages?" but most of us already have converter solutions, and in any case if you're smart, eliminate the AP's supplied external power supply and go directly from the batteries - just match the DC volts needed. Some might say "IPX standards? What about waterproofing?" and my answer is "Why? The box is so cheap I'd keep it till it dies rather than pay twice for waterproofing; your onboard PC is likely of the same IPX class, but do you worry?"

Smear jelly over the coax fittings, and the antenna is waterproof. If cabling indoors for Ethernet, use the black outdoors Cat6 cable.

I won't go into a number of factual errors, but quickly: the 802 "n" standard has been with us for a long time. It may lack final official "standard" status, but all vendors from Apple to Linksys, Zyxel and TrendNet have had it in their boxes for at least a year. As for max allowed strength of antennas, 30dB is not a global standard. In my country the limit is 21dB, in others it varies.

For those interested in futures, look out for LTE and WiMax. Apart from Tonga and such, these nets mostly emanating from mobile phone telcos will soon match and supercede WiFi for most of us.
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  #22  
Old 04-06-2009
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The Linksys would be only necessary if you wanted to: 1) provide an on-board wifi network for multiple laptops to use...2) connect multiple devices with hardwired-Ethernet to the WiFi network.

A good use of the first one is to provide other boats without a long-range WiFi antenna setup access to the WiFi network you're bridging.

A lot of newer nav hardware, like Garmin's higher end chartplotters, radar, etc., are ethernet equipped and need to be networked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pschoonveld View Post
Hey sailingdog,

Ubiquity's site wasn't terribly helpful, but I saw mention elsewhere that the NanoStation could run as a bridge or a repeater. Why would you need the LinkSys if it can run as a bridge.

I've been thinking about something like this for a bit and it looks like Ubiquity has a ton of options.
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  #23  
Old 04-06-2009
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The one point I'd make is that long runs of coax tend to defeat the purpose of using an amplified antenna. You're much better off using something that has the antenna close to the active electronics to minimize the losses of signal strength. This is why I recommend the Ubiquiti NanoStation 2. It has the WiFi receiver built into the antenna housing, leaving little coax signal loss. The USB devices do much the same, but a POE device like the NanoStation can be positioned further away from the computer and power supply without having to resort to a signal amplifying cable, as is required for USB. While you can't get 100 meters out of a POE setup, you can get 30-40' up the mast pretty typically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
Jandy, I cannot leave this alone. The more I read, more the fog thickens.
Confessions first: I started, own and act as Chairman of an ISP delivering broadband via wireless, many years ago using 802/b, now WiMax, and we install home networks all over the place. I have put WiFi on my boat.

Your solution is way expensive and unnecessary. To establish WiFi onboard and receive/transmit, you need an AP (Access Point) or Bridge from almost any major manufacturer. Cost $100 or less. End of story, until you want stronger signals.

For stronger signals, buy a bigger, passive antenna and run coax to the AP. I went overboard and got a 21dB round beam, which should theoretically receive and transmit a couple of miles with the above AP. You can do with less.

The AP point already has (cabled) Ethernet out, so to hook up PCs and the like you really need no more. For pure luxury, I added an Airport Express to run an indoor wireless net, but on a small boat, is that needed?

Apart from the very large antennas, all this is standard home equipment, and inexpensive. To me, the attempt to sell "marine" systems is profiteering on some innocent sailor's belief that radio waves must be different at sea. Bunkum all the way. Some might say "what about voltages?" but most of us already have converter solutions, and in any case if you're smart, eliminate the AP's supplied external power supply and go directly from the batteries - just match the DC volts needed. Some might say "IPX standards? What about waterproofing?" and my answer is "Why? The box is so cheap I'd keep it till it dies rather than pay twice for waterproofing; your onboard PC is likely of the same IPX class, but do you worry?"

Smear jelly over the coax fittings, and the antenna is waterproof. If cabling indoors for Ethernet, use the black outdoors Cat6 cable.

I won't go into a number of factual errors, but quickly: the 802 "n" standard has been with us for a long time. It may lack final official "standard" status, but all vendors from Apple to Linksys, Zyxel and TrendNet have had it in their boxes for at least a year. As for max allowed strength of antennas, 30dB is not a global standard. In my country the limit is 21dB, in others it varies.

For those interested in futures, look out for LTE and WiMax. Apart from Tonga and such, these nets mostly emanating from mobile phone telcos will soon match and supercede WiFi for most of us.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
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  #24  
Old 04-06-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
The one point I'd make is that long runs of coax tend to defeat the purpose of using an amplified antenna.
Absolutely. I keep it simple: the antenna lives in a fishing rod holder on the rail when in harbor, with a short run coax of less than 20ft. No need for amplification, and these antennas do not need to sit high up.

Instead of amplifying, use thicker coax. The issue is parallel to that of VHF, where many have RG58 running up the mast. When the mast is 50ft and more, you'll do better with RG213. For reference: at least in my country, commercial vessels will not have their VHF approved if the cable is RG58 and cable length exceeds 65ft.
I use way thicker again to my WiFi.
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  #25  
Old 04-06-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xort View Post
JRP
From jandys first poste here: "I was lucky enough to come in contact with the manufacturer of these new high power WiFi transmitter/receivers through a friend of a relative and ended up a beta tester in return to offering my review and results and I can say, the search is OVER"

So does he have a commercial connection? Yes, sort of.
Xort,

Yes, I saw that. But something about it didn't sound right to me. And then Jandy went on to say (redacted for brevity, emphasis added):

Quote:
Originally Posted by jandy View Post
....
Sorry sailingdog, these commercial units are not on the market yet. But YOU know they are junk right? Is this true colors times??

....

But I don't know what I am doing, just relying on stats on-line and experts words.

....

the PASSPORT802.ULTRA's are $59.00 MSRP Which has no installation, USB plug and play. Completely different animal. Take it out of your pocket and plug it in, turn on your computer and go.

....

I am sure these are all real good, but I have not seen anything that cheap with that power rating or convenience - thus I just thought I would talk about them. (but I don't have clue anyway)

.....

The "PORTSIDE802" I believe is marketed as a lesser cost commercial grade solution to the really expensive commercial duty boxes, not the little ones for in close in use and certainly not "hoist it up the mast" types And they have a built in router option and are AP configurable as servers. I think that's the PASSPORT units - little USB devices you should have been comparing to sailingdog.

....

And for those who are interested, the engineers tell me the jumps between 500mW, 600mW up to 1,000mW are huge steps that require completely different chip sets for each of the incremental steps up. But what do they know. Engineers, phooey, what do they know. By the way, when I asked them about the chip sets, they said Ubiquiti products are real good stuff, just a different market and application focus and a little more expensive - but good stuff for their market. Am I promoting 802Marine stuff ?? I guess I am and let me ADD !!! FURUNO, MAXSEA, MAPTECH, ICOM, GPSNavX, XAXERO, GLOBAL MARINE NETWORKS, DIGITAL ANTENNA, MORAD, IRIDIUM, ANCOR, LINKSYS, HP, CARL ZEISS, NIKON and SONY-no bologna) !!! GOOD STUFF AND EXPENSIVE TOO. Oh yeah, PORT TOWNSEND SAILS TOO!!! THAT'S WHAT I HAVE ON MY BOAT. THAT'S WHAT I USE. I DO NOT USE GARMIN or SNOOGYLOOGY OR . . . .

.....

Maybe you need to read a little closer, I did not compare or endorse or wish to "advertise" the PASSPORT802.ULTRA (but at the price, it's a great little device) BUT is not the same as the Ubiquiti 2 or 5 - as stated, different animal, different application.

....

So since I don't know what I am talking about, I suggest people go to the Ubiquiti site and check out all of the products they make (that don't exist of course - good stuff for the market as far as I am told and as i can see)

.....

As far as your (sailingdog's) weird statement "I do not know what I am talking about" i think what you mean is the manufacturers and engineers I talk to "don't know what THEY are talking about" I am just a consumer, and do not claim to an expert, just a hard core shopper with a with a boat and a high tech background in other completely unrelated passive audio electronics fields. Just a Note: I DO know this, you will find that I do not post a reply to every thread on every subject in every Forum category on the sailnet site.

Forums are cool and everything, but i am trying hard to have a life.

Oh well, I am happy, my PORTSIDE802 box works great and I have one single nice LMR400DB cable going out to the antenna just like my VHF and my DSLREPORTS DOT COM data throughput tests results are "rockin"!!! and i get signals everywhere i go up and down the greater Puget Sound region and up and down the Pacific Coast.

Safe sail all . . . .

Which he followed with this post (emphasis added):


Quote:
Originally Posted by jandy View Post
Well I give up

Sorry, but I was given a box to use, but not money to use it. Just real happy with the results I achieved and thought I would share it and sorry again for "Channels" of course they are PORTS but I was not being as focused as i should have been.

I would love to rep these WiFi products though, nut they are a small company and have no room for an old man. i would not think of telling them to look at this thread though, they would not understand not being able to speak openly about products. everyone I know are live-aboard's and depend on the wireless platform, so, we all talk about what we find out and pass it on, in any subjects sailing and boating related.

The guys I met doing the marine products were wireless engineers for AT&T, ClearWire and SPRINT network stuff. The units they make are "commercial grade" Just wanted to talk about WiFi - sorry for sounding "commercial" I an expert at buying bad gear for high dollars. Guess there's a bunch of better gear than I could find, in my years of searching. I do wish they did paid me, but they did give me a box, so I guess that iI got paid.

While Jandy did not respond to my direct inquirey about his commercial interest in this product, he has more than intimated in the above quoted material that he does not have one.

However, we went back a bit and reviewed one of his first posts to SailNet. You can see the post here:

Wifi

We had to edit that post to remove commercial content. Here's how it originally read (emphasis added):

Quote:
Originally Posted by jandy View Post
Marine WiFi -The Good, The Bad and The Un-reasonably Priced

I am a blue water sailor/owner gearing up my 50' Sparkman Stephens sloop for world travel. I have an extensive background in computers, servers, electronics, optical fibre networks, broadcasting, manufacturing and the such. Becoming very unhappy with the SAD STATE of the whole marine WiFi hardware and services situation; poor config's, HIGH priced-low quality gear, seeing confusing and BAD information from individuals all over the net that have no idea what they are talking about, extremely expensive SAT systems and well, you know the rest, etc. I decided to design and build my own system. Well, low and behold, one thing lead to another and i ended up working with several OEM's around the world and locally for mother boards and power supplies. marine ABS housings and component manufacturing and have become a manufacturer, without originally intending to do so. Long story short, the product line is called 802Marine™ NOT $2,500 or $2,000 or $1,500 - High power units are now being manufactured which will be $499.00 MSRP and sell for under that - They connect to a 12dBi or 15dBi 2.4 ghz antenna with LMR400DB White or ANCOR RG213 and work great - 7+ mile range - (We've seen signals at far greater distance too) Some of these things I read out there stating 4 or 6 watt systems - this is false information. The maximum allowed FCC (USA/Canada), CE (Europe) and TELEC (Japan) ISO's, under IEEE 802.11 b/g standards is; 1000mW. So don't be fooled. There is no need to spend THOUSANDS of dollars for real nice, super powerful WiFi system and connect it to your hub and wireless outfit your whole boat, other comps, printers, etc. Free WiFi is all over the world and coming soon to the USA, Canada and Caribbean - (if they like it not - free WiFi is sweeping the planet) Anyway, I am open to straight talk/answer any questions from anyone interested in what I am making or just talk on-board WiFi stuff in general. I can't post the site which is under final construction because I am new to sailnet but if you contact me through "Private Message" I will send pdf's and info on all of this stuff and more on what I am doing. Marine WiFi is now as important as your VHF and SSB (well, almost, you know what I mean) More later and we'll see you on the net/sea VERY soon. Oh yeah, nice little 500mW portable for going ashore - too!!!

So it appears we have our next Hall of Shame entry.
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  #26  
Old 04-06-2009
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Would that not indicate that he has some connection to the company??? I would think that the person who designed and built the product line would be a part of the company??? Thanks for hunting the lying sack of S*** down...

BTW, I have no financial or corporate relationship with the Ubiquiti products that I endorse, aside from having used them for about six months. Have two more NS2's on order at the moment.

Quote:
I decided to design and build my own system. Well, low and behold, one thing lead to another and i ended up working with several OEM's around the world and locally for mother boards and power supplies. marine ABS housings and component manufacturing and have become a manufacturer, without originally intending to do so. Long story short, the product line is called 802Marine™
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #27  
Old 04-15-2009
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To answer pschoonfeld's question, the Ubiqiti PicoStation2 can act as a wireless repeater in WDS (wireless distribution system) mode. However, this only works with another compatible WDS device configured specifically to talk WDS with your device. In short, it won't work with the shore Access Point you are connecting to.

Instead, you generally have to have your boat's high-powered WiFi station connect to a shore access point, and bridge or route the traffic to the hard-wire Ethernet port. Then, if you want to distribute wirelessly onboard, you need a second WiFi unit, for which many use a Linksys WiFi router.

The alternative to this is to use a WiFi unit with dual radios (in think Engenius makes one) or something like the Engenius EOC-2610, which has a feature called Universal Wireless Repeater that uses a single radio for both the shore connetion and it's own access point.

I have an Engenius EOC-2610 configured this way. The only thing I don't like with it so far is that it needs 48Vdc.

Instead, I am trying out a Ubiquiti PicoStation2, even though it doesn't have a Universal Wireless Repeater feature, as I think it will run on the boat's 12Vdc system. Does anybody know where I can buy a Power-Over-Ethernet injector that will wire directly into the boat's 12Vdc system?
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2009
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Sailingdog, could you let a newbie know if his understanding is correct?

I get a poor signal from the marina wifi to get my email and such. I want more bars, so I buy a Nanostation 2 for $79 from an appropriate vendor. I attach it to a rail or haul it up the stick using my courtesy flag halyard, depending on where I need it to get a good signal. I also need to get an ethernet cable of the appropriate length that runs down to my salon. "POE Supply and Injector Included" I take to mean that there is some power cord that I plug into 12V or 110V attached to a box that I plug the ethernet cable into to allow power to run to the Nanostation. I now plug an ethernet cable into the "injector" box to my laptop and am up and running? Or, I plug the ethernet cable into a Linksys WRT54G, and set up my laptop internal card to receive that network, is that right? Thanks in advance!

Last edited by bareboatskipper; 04-15-2009 at 08:11 PM. Reason: reduce confusion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bareboatskipper View Post
Sailingdog, could you let a newbie know if his understanding is correct?

I get a poor signal from the marina wifi to get my email and such. I want more bars, so I buy a Nanostation 2 for $79 from an appropriate vendor. I attach it to a rail or haul it up the stick using my courtesy flag halyard, depending on where I need it to get a good signal. I also need to get an ethernet cable of the appropriate length that runs down to my salon. "POE Supply and Injector Included" I take to mean that there is some power cord that I plug into 12V or 110V attached to a box that I plug the ethernet cable into to allow power to run to the Nanostation. I now plug an ethernet cable into the "injector" box to my laptop and am up and running? Or, I plug the ethernet cable into a Linksys WRT54G, and set up my laptop internal card to receive that network, is that right? Thanks in advance!
Pretty much spot on. Any questions, let me know.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #30  
Old 04-16-2009
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Spot on "but". Mainly "but" the POE cable may require a 48 volt power supply (!) which is usually a wall wart that needs 110/120VAC. The actual device may only require 12VDC or less, so it may be possible to replace the POE power wart with a simple nominal 12VDC (ships power) connection instead. Key words "may be" and you'd want to check that out.
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