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  #21  
Old 03-31-2009
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[quote=harbin2;468970]
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I'm curious why you advise using an ablative first???
I am getting ready to apply the Interprotect 2000E. I just ordered a gallon of the Interlux bottomkote epoxy in black for my first coat - of course, it is a hard paint. My plan was to next apply two more coats of the Micron Extra (ablative).
#1 Why would you ever want a hard paint on a boat again after going through all the work to strip it??

#2 because I have been doing it since 1998 when I stripped and barrier coated my old C-30 and it works perfectly with absolutely zero build up. The bottom still looks good ten+ years later and the current owner still uses the same multi-season ablative. No flaking or peeling just smooth..
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  #22  
Old 04-01-2009
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I had read a couple other posts where this was done. Guess I should have questioned them. I'm certainly not ready to debate hard vs. ablative for a first coat and I can see your point but here was my logic.

1. Previous paint (5 or 6 layers) was completely flaking off in areas due to poor adhesion. Don't want that to ever happen again (guess that goes without saying).
2. I had planned to use only hard paint. I want to be able to clean the bottom and I'm concerned about cleaning through the ablative. A hard first coat will ensure there is always paint on the bottom. If I end up not liking ablative, I can always revert back to hard since it's ok to apply ablative over hard but not the other way around.
3. Bottomkote epoxy is half the price of Micron Extra.
4. I like the idea of epoxy paint on top of epoxy barrier coat.

It already shipped and returning it will be very hard. So I'll go ahead as planned. I did check with my Interlux rep. on going this route and to get a recoat time (micron over bottomkote). He didn't seem to have a problem.
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Old 04-01-2009
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Harbin..

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Originally Posted by harbin2 View Post
I had read a couple other posts where this was done.
There's lots of misguided preferences and lots of old wives tales on the net..

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Originally Posted by harbin2 View Post
1. Previous paint (5 or 6 layers) was completely flaking off in areas due to poor adhesion. Don't want that to ever happen again (guess that goes without saying).
Sadly after you finish all your HARD work, and apply a hard epoxy paint, you will eventually experience the same exact thing. Epoxy paint is NOT epoxy like West Systems or Interprotect 2000 are. It is a paint with a particular epoxy ingredient that is it. Many paints are epoxy based like Easy Poxy but it does not make them anything like epoxy resins. As such these epoxy paints are not water proof. The barrier coat is significantly more waterproof than an epoxy paint and when water gets between the two it will eventually begin to lift it. In my 35+ years of boating I have never not seen a hard paint eventually begin to peel..

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Originally Posted by harbin2 View Post
2. I had planned to use only hard paint. I want to be able to clean the bottom and I'm concerned about cleaning through the ablative.
Many thousands of boats who use ablatives also clean their bottoms for racing. We wash Cordelia, the Ericson I race on, twice per year only to get a slight slime off it. If you apply the suggested coats in the suggested manner you will not likely be washing through it, we never have.


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Originally Posted by harbin2 View Post
A hard first coat will ensure there is always paint on the bottom.
Yes but only until it peels or becomes ineffective. Most hard paints are ineffective after a haul out, even Interlux Ultra (this is a hard paint) can not be hauled and re-launched. No matter how much you want them to work they are toast. If the paint becomes ineffective due to time in water or a haul out you have to ask yourself, "what is the point of having a hard paint under an ablative". It will be as effective as the barrier coat after the first season meaning it will repel next to nothing. It is a total waste of time & your hard earned money if you are thinking it will offer any protection if your ablative layers wash away. If you have sailed it more than a season or you have dry stored it for any period of time Bottomkote is dead.


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If I end up not liking ablative, I can always revert back to hard since it's ok to apply ablative over hard but not the other way around.
This is the only benefit, with a big caveat. In order to get back to the layer of hard paint you'll need to fully sand off the ablative you are moving away from. This is much easier said than done and might as well be another full strip. Unfortunately, I have yet to meet anyone who has actually done a bottom job, switched to an ablative, and wanted to go back to a hard paint unless they were a very competitive racer and could not burnish the ablative to their liking. Perhaps they are out there but I have yet to meet one.

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Originally Posted by harbin2 View Post
3. Bottomkote epoxy is half the price of Micron Extra.
Yesand but its also half the paint. I would hope you ordered Bottomkote Classic as Bottomkote is a soft sloughing paint. Both Bottomkote Classic (hard) and Bottomkote (sloughing) are SINGLE season paints. This means they are rendered useless after haul and re-launch. USELESS !!! Wear away your ablative paint after a stint of winter storage and your Bottomkote is as useless as the barrier coat or gel coat is so why have it at all? The gray or white barrier coat also makes a great but equally as useless tracer coat...

Multi-season copolymers like Micron CSC or Extra or Ultima SR or West marine PCA are true multi-season paints. You DO NOT need to repaint copolymer ablatives until you hit your tracer color. If it takes three seasons before you hit your tracer color you just saved a TON of money over Bottomkote Classic!! If the tracer color is a copolymer ablative it will also be an efficacious layer, when you get there, not rendered useless by time or exposure to oxygen.

I paint my boat roughly every two years so that actually makes Micron Extra LESS money than a yearly paint that has become ineffective yet still stuck to your hull as a useless dead layer of added weight..

Please DO NOT get hung up on the price. Multi-season copolymers are CHEAPER, much cheaper, in the long run. If our current boat had not been painted first with a useless hard paint and was done with ablatives the last time she was stripped I would be saving 5k+ right now on a bottom job (the PO did this not me)!!

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Originally Posted by harbin2 View Post
4. I like the idea of epoxy paint on top of epoxy barrier coat.
Again they are NOT the same thing!! The only thing they share is the word epoxy. Go buy some appliance epoxy spray paint at you local hardware store and compare it to West Systems resin or Interprotect 2000E. Appliance paint has about as much in common with epoxy resins as does Bottomkote Classic..

Quote:
Originally Posted by harbin2 View Post
It already shipped and returning it will be very hard. So I'll go ahead as planned. I did check with my Interlux rep. on going this route and to get a recoat time (micron over bottomkote). He didn't seem to have a problem.
I am trying to help you SAVE money in the long haul. Using this method will only serve to have you back here in a few years saying "I should have listened to you guys"..

I will say this again.. There is no benefit to applying a hard paint over a new barrier coat! I know this because I have "been there, done that" and learned my lesson.

Personally I'd return the Bottomkote.. West PCA is basically the same paint as Ultima SR, its made by Petitt, and it goes on sale every spring for about $159.00 per gallon. Interlux ACT is also another excellent ablative for sailboats as it sloughs at slower speeds than does the Micron line. For Micron you really need about 7-8 knots for sloughing. ACT will leave less build up and can be hauled and relaunched. Unfortunately it wears away or ablades faster so need a new coat every season.

Hamilton Marine Pricing:

Bottomkote Classic = $129.99 X 2 Seasons = $259.98

Extra = $229.00 X 2 seasons = $229.00

or

Interlux ACT = $157.99 it wears away faster so you'll likely need it every season

West Marine PCA = $159.99 (sale) X 2 Seasons = $159.00

Extra & PCA are cheaper but you need to look at the whole cost equation to realize it..
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 04-01-2009 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 04-01-2009
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Maine Sail, btw - did you see the photos I posted side by side? Do you have a better theory then mine? I am still puzzled by what I found.
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Old 04-01-2009
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IF the holes the fasteners went through weren't sealed, then water could have easily entered the laminate through the raw fiberglass, by wicking along the glass fibers there. Then small amounts of water freezing and thawing could have caused the damage to the gelcoat you're seeing.
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Old 04-01-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
IF the holes the fasteners went through weren't sealed, then water could have easily entered the laminate through the raw fiberglass, by wicking along the glass fibers there. Then small amounts of water freezing and thawing could have caused the damage to the gelcoat you're seeing.
I did think about that.

But if that is the case, I would expect damage to be radiating in circle from the holes, as water wicks pretty much evenly (or perhaps slightly more downward). Instead, it is specifically limited to exactly the area under the ground plate. Since distance from holes to middle of plate (or to vertcal edges) is more than distance to top and bottom edges, if damage would have radiated that way I'd expect the circle of damage to protrude up and down from the holes beyond the immediate ground plate square. It does not. Also there is more damage in some areas farther away from the holes (but still under the ground plate) than it is in their immediate vicinity.

The fact that it is so precisely limited to ground plate shape really seems to invalidate that theory (at least not by itself, may be as a contributing factor).
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Old 04-01-2009
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True, but you haven't sodablasted the hull, so the damage might actually be centered around the two fastener holes.... What is immediately visible is the shape of the block. Also, if the outer layer is matte, which is usually the case, the different directions could be due to the water wicking along the CSM strands.

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I did think about that.

But if that is the case, I would expect damage to be radiating in circle from the holes, as water wicks pretty much evenly (or perhaps slightly more downward). Instead, it is specifically limited to exactly the area under the ground plate. Since distance from holes to middle of plate (or to vertcal edges) is more than distance to top and bottom edges, if damage would have radiated that way I'd expect the circle of damage to protrude up and down from the holes beyond the immediate ground plate square. It does not. Also there is more damage in some areas farther away from the holes (but still under the ground plate) than it is in their immediate vicinity.

The fact that it is so precisely limited to ground plate shape really seems to invalidate that theory (at least not by itself, may be as a contributing factor).
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Old 04-01-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
True, but you haven't sodablasted the hull, so the damage might actually be centered around the two fastener holes.... What is immediately visible is the shape of the block. Also, if the outer layer is matte, which is usually the case, the different directions could be due to the water wicking along the CSM strands.
I have cleaned paint off around the area and verified that gelcoat is in just as good a condition as elsewhere immediately outside the ground plate area. It really is a perfect straight line demarcating the damage and the good gelcoat.

That the wicking in outer layer would just happen to match the shape of the plate is possible, of course, but sounds somewhat unlikely.
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Old 04-01-2009
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Yeah, that's about as likely as the Cubs winning the World Series in a reverse sweep against the Yankees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brak View Post
That the wicking in outer layer would just happen to match the shape of the plate is possible, of course, but sounds somewhat unlikely.
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Old 04-01-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Most hard paints are ineffective after a haul out. No matter how much you want them to work they are toast. If the paint becomes ineffective due to time in water or a haul out what is the point of having a hard paint under an ablative. It will be as effective as the barrier coat after the first season. It is a total waste of time if you are thinking it will offer any protection if your ablative layers wash away.
In a recent post on a similar topic I said I would consider using a hard paint for the first coat...may I retract that statement? When I did my bottom repair I used only ablatives, and now I am glad I did because what MS states makes total sense.

Below shows two coats of black ablative over the barrier coat, followed by one coat of blue ablative:



For the record, I spent the better part of a day sanding my hull using many 60 grit sanding disks after the blasting job was done. Maybe he didn't do as good as job as he should have blasting the hull? Maybe it was because there was years of hard paint build up, the boat is a 1982?

Dunno know, but the blasting did take off most of it (99%) and there was a lot to remove. I wanted to be sure, so I sanded till all I saw was pure white gel coat. So, three years now with the boat being stored in the water year round and I have found zero signs of blistering, voids, etc.

Here is what it looked like after he was done (yes, those a hundreds of tiny blisters about the size of a baby pea):


Last edited by T37Chef; 04-01-2009 at 08:00 PM.
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