How neccesary is a second set of reefpoints in a mainsail?

[midnightsailor]

I just got off the phone with a good friend of mine who has just ordered a new set of sails for his Pearson 30. He is getting a new furling genoa and a new mainsail. He is having them made by Doyle. He was describing the features of his new mainsail to me which included draft stripes, numbers, logo, tell tales, 2 full and two regular battens,and one set of reef points. I questioned his getting just one set of reef points. I pointed out that his old mainsail had not only a flattening reef but also 3 sets of reef points and that I could understand possibly eliminating the third set of points , maybe even the flattening reef, but that he should atleast have two sets of regular reef points. My views is that the third set is a deep reef which I see as possibly an alternative to a storm trysail and that I can understand with his type of sailing he would probably never need, but that the second set is good insurance should he find himself out in stronger winds than he is use to. Also, since he is going all out for a decent new mainsail and will likely have it for a long time he should have the second set of points built into it now. The flattening reef I feel he should have as he races alot and in the past we have used the flattening reef quite often of the old sail. He told me he at first agreed with me but that the Doyle rep. who came to measure for the sails talked him out of them. He gave the resoning that he has found that no one ever really needs or uses mmore than the first reef. (I find this mindblowing since I personally have been in many situations where I used, and definately needed to use, my second reef points) When it came to the flatening reef he explained that Doyle had done alot of wind tunnel testing and computer modeling regarding the use and need for a flattening reef and that they discovered it not to be only unneccesary, but actually counterproductive in that it only hurt performance and never made any improvement. I found this explanation to be very qquestionable, not only regarding the testing results but even the whole idea that Doyle really went theough all this wind tunnels testing and computer modeling regarding the use of a flattening reef. Yet why would the rep discourage someone from adding these items if they wanted them? I mean I would think they would just say fine, it will cost so much extra for each set of reefd points, so much more for the flattening reef and be done with it. I mean, the cost was never an issue , so it wasn't like he was trying just to save my friend money. I wonder what everyone else's opinions of this are? Am I the only one who thinks a second set of reef points are a good thing to have? Is a flattening reef an effective sail shape control? Do you really think Doyle did this kind of testing and got these kind of ressults? Maybe I am a little to cynical or suspicious but to me somthing dosn't make sense. I wouild love to hear other views, thanks, Rick

[midnightsailor]

No one has any opinion on the need for more than one set of reef points?

[Encre2Chine]

Hi Rick,
Ok then, I'll be the first
I think not having a second set of reef points on a main is not only stupid (specially since a brand new one is being made just for you) but also dangerous. Here in Hong Kong, the wind goes from 8 to 25 kt ..and down to 8 in the same afternoon. Once out offshore, you'd better have the main properly equipped to handle these "3 to 4 hour gusts". When in doubt, I leave the marina with 2 reefs, and see how it looks outside. It's always easier and safer to release one later than realizing too late that you're over-powered...providing you can reduce the sail surface.
Now, I have no idea about Doyle as I have never heard of them. I use North Sails "Soft Norlam" sails on my First 31.7, and I'm happy that they come with 2 reef points. In fact, I don't remember having even mentioned or being proposed the option of having only one.
My 2 cents

[bubb2]

I will second the advice for a second set of reef points. If you only have a single reef point there will came a day when you will wish you could reef it down to 50%.

[midnightsailor]

Doyle is a respected sailmaker here on the east Coast US and you both support my feelings about the need for a second set of reef points. That is why I find it hard to understand Doyles Sails contention that it is unnecesary.

[sailingdog]

Your friend really should talk to a different loft... that's bad advice IMHO. Unless he can manage to control the weather... having a second reef point is pretty much mandatory IMHO on any boat bigger than a sailing dinghy.

Not only does having a second reef give your friend more options in heavier winds, it can also help save the main sail some wear and tear. Having the main sail up and over powered or using a fisherman's reef is far worse for the life of the sail than using a proper second reef.

Adding them when making the sail is not only less expensive, but generally a better option, since the reinforcing patches can be integrated into the sail more easily. I had a third reef added to my main sail a while back... and find that it is a very nice option to have, as I often go out in SCA type weather.

If he races, then a cunningham cringle or flattening reef is really a good idea too... As for the rep talking about computer testing... if it really didn't work... why do so many sailors use them...and why do they work in the real world conditions. Modeling the effects of a flattening reef takes a lot of very sophisticated computer programming, more so than just modeling full sails, and I seriously doubt that Doyle or anyone else spent the time and money on doing that—considering all the real world data that shows it does have a significant effect.

[tommays]

I have NOT seen a flattening reef in a REALLY long time and i am out with 40+ race boats several times a week


I only have one reef but it can carry me to the 30 knot range and wish i did have a second just in case we get yet a nother thunder storm i cant get away from

My orginal J24 sails had a reef in the 100% jib and two reefs in the main and a flattening reef which we never used

[sailingdog]

How deep is your first reef???

Originally Posted by tommays

I only have one reef but it can carry me to the 30 knot range and wish i did have a second just in case we get yet a nother thunder storm i cant get away from

[sailingfool]

Falttening reefs are very out of style, that was n't even discussed when configuring my lasy mainsail..
However, the second reef should be standard for a cruising boat...some serious racers will have a main made with only one reef, or in the case of a sled i race on, no reefs at all, but a boat like a P30 should have two reefs, again unless it is only raced...I us emy second reef around 25 MPH, and that's with a small jib already up. Did Doyle in fact recommend jsut one...if so, why?

[midnightsailor]

Sailingdog: agree 100% with your feelings about what I wrote. I too have a hard time swollowing the claim made by the Doyle rep. of wind tunnel testing and computer modeling regarding the flattening reef.

Tommays: I could go along with the idea that perhaps the flattening reef is not neccesary, but sometimes nice to have but the second reef I agree is a necessity.

Sailingfool: Yes, in fact, that is correct and also ewhat really puzzels me, the Doyle Rep. not only reccomened just one set of reef points but actually talked my friend out of it. This I find so perplexing since I would think that even if the rep did not feel the need for a second set of points wouldn't it be easier and probably financially persuasive for him to just agree to adding the second reef points and charging for the extra work rather than spending a lot of time and effort talking my friend out of it?
I tried to persuade my friend not to listen to this rep and go ahead and have him add the second set of reef points, I pointed out to him all the reasons everyone here has given for doing so including the fact that it would be best to add them while the sail is being built rather than at a later time. He expressed that perhaps if he found out later that I was correct he would add them later.
I am hoping that sharing this thread with him might help him see the wisdom of putting those reef points now. Prehaps I should not concern myself so much about his boat but as a friend and also one who has done a considerable amount of work on his boat for him restoring his 1972 Pearson 30 , I feel I must try and help him see all the ramifications. I appreciate all your comments and your sharing your expierience and views. Rick