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Boatyard Discussion

9K views 59 replies 33 participants last post by  geraldartman 
#1 ·
I recently purchased an 8 year old boat that required some work. Since the season was close to the end, I wanted to have the local yard perform the work. I''ve learned quite a bit from this experience- here are some of my findings:

1. estimates are given for each total job (labor and materials). The invoice lists these in separate places which are not subtotaled- you therefore have to comb through every screw, wire, and ty-rap cost to determine the total actual cost and compare it to the estimate. This seems like a convenient way to make it difficult for the customer to reconcile the totals and compare to the estimates.

2. to my surprise, most of the ''actual'' numbers on the invoice exceeded the estimates by 20% or more. Some were off by 200%. These variances were not communicated prior to receiving the invoice. Is this unusual? This quickly turned a $40K job into a $50+K job.

3. there was very little quality assurance on the completed jobs. Hinges were not tightened back up, paint overspray remained, deck hardware was not rebedded properly with the correct washer/nut combinations, wires were not labeled, wire runs were cut too short and therefore were not routed around the edge and out of storage areas, wiring was not protected by looms or panels when installed in stowage areas, panels and cabinent doors were broken, etc. It seems like everywhere I looked, there were signs of taking a shortcut. I''ll spend months verifying some of the work in the hard to reach places on the boat.

4. the series of jobs ran behind schedule by more than 30%

5. Following up in person once a month for several days each visit during the past three months and numerous telephone conversations did not seem to prevent the above issues.

6. Parts specified six weeks earlier by the customer did not arrive on time and delayed the project. The yard then attempts to charge an expedited freight fee because of the ''rush'' order.

This is a very reputable yard on the east coast. I''m sure you would recognize the name and be equally surprised.

I''ve seen a lot of articles regarding ''how to'' maintenance and ''boat buying tips'' etc. but I''ve never seen any infromation on how to contract and manage projects with a boatyard. What are their common ''tricks'' that they try to pull over on the unsuspecting customer?

Anyone have any thoughts and experiences on the subject that they would like to share?
 
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#2 ·
That sounds about normal. My father always said that when he wanted to estimate how much a job in a boat yard would cost, he would estimate how long he thought the job should take to do and then double that. He would then multiply that number of hours times the prevailing yard rate. He would then add in the price of part and multiply the sum by two. And that would be the yard estimate. The job usually cost twice that. He first said that in the early 1960''s.

The other thing was our gag about a professional job. When I was a kid, Dad and I (actually mostly Dad but I did try to help) did most of the work on our boats. Occasionally he would run out of time before commissioning and ask the yard to do something for him. The work was really not up to the standard of quality that we would have done and so when one of us did a less than perfect job, the running gag was "You sure did a professional job that time".

Jeff
 
#3 ·
alas, it is "normal." completely unacceptable and boarding on fraud but normal. I had a series of jobs done last season by a major shipyard in the state of Rhode Island and then managed to come in way over estimate, more than a month late, and, in some cases, of questionable quality. Basically they hold your boat hostage until you pay the bill so you can either pay it and get your boat back or fight with them and potentially lose alot of sailing time. I have a 35'' sailboat and this particular yard caters to megayachts. I am not sure if I got shafted due to the size of my boat or what.
 
#4 ·
It is quite a sorry state of affairs. Good Quality workmanship, On-time delivery, and on or under estimate. It seems the people doing the work just want to take the easiest way out with the most shortcuts. The yard manager does not want to bother to check the quality of the work or whether it meets the original requirements. And when it comes time to have the work completed, all I get are excuses about how they''re going through ''growing pains'' and how busy they''ve been this season.

I wonder if anyone has contracted with a yard and included a penalty clause for variances from time, cost, or quality specifications. Maybe that would give them some incentive to meet expectations. Anyone ever hear of such a thing?
 
#5 ·
Boatyard follies

Well do I remember, about 20 years ago, when my Dad's Mariner 47 was at a well-known "marine railway" (hint, hint) on the upper Cape (Cod). Her toe rail had been damaged in a blow, and one of the a/c systems wouldn't cool. I had to show the yard refrigeration "mechanic" how to leak-detect a water-cooled condenser, as he hadn't a clue (at about $85/hour-in 1989). Later, someone was getting aboard from a dinghy while I had the generator running; he grabbed a stanchion and was knocked back into the dinghy by 115 Volts a.c., which I confirmed by connecting a voltmeter to the stanchion. After nearly a week of tearing things apart below, I discovered that the yard people, when replacing the stanchion on the new toe rail, ran a long wood screw through the deck and straight into a cable bundle. (Originally the stanchion had been, properly, through-bolted with a backing plate-only a lazy idiot would use a wood screw). I own an 18' Marshall cat, on which I do all of the work. I will only buy a larger boat (hopefully to live aboard) when I'm sure I'm in a position to do all of the work on that, as well. I will NEVER trust a yard to do anything more than perhaps remove and apply bottom paint.
 
#8 ·
yep, yards (and professional marine work in general) are like that. they quote an outrageous number (if at all, some just say "time and money"), do a job that is decent at best and downright shoddy quite often, and then bill you significantly more than originally estimated.

this is why I try to do almost everything myself (except when I don't have time, tools or expertise).

On the upside I asked my yard to do a few small jobs on my boat about 3 weeks ago. Well, they are presumably done as of yesterday (though I haven't seen the results yet) and the charge is $500. There was no estimate (they work for time and materials) but this is only about a $100 more than I thought it may cost (and right on with the amount I thought they would bill for the job). 3 weeks to do something is a HUGE improvement over most other yards I dealt with (where nothing would EVER be done for months without constantly reminding them). Now if they didn't screw things up too much - I will consider them a perfect place.

They did fix something on my boat last year in about 3 days and I was on the way, so this would be a second decent experience. Not to jinx it - I'll report on results this coming weekend.
 
#9 ·
Another note. There are no good yards in Annapolis and direct vicinity. By "good" I mean "able to do reasonable quality work in reasonable time for reasonable price". I dealt with virtually all of them and all fail on each of the three counts. They are late, overpriced and do bad work. Interestingly, my best experiences with marine work were with companies located in Florida. I don't know if it's the air or the sun or something. Of course YMMV.
 
#10 · (Edited)
A rebuttal

Okay, the other side of the coin.

I work in a marina - Hartge Yacht Yard, in Galesville, Maryland. (And it is near Annapolis)

For the most part, we have a good reputation. I'm not saying that we don't go over estimate in some cases. You can look at a job all you want to, but until you actually get into it, you don't know how long it is going to take.

Example number one:
I've been given a varnish job to do. I assess the job and gather my materials on Monday. I check the weather report for the week. No rain in the forecast. So I tape out the boat (this takes longer than you might think to do a good job) and start sanding.

I find some areas where the varnish has lifted and it peels off down to the wood. The guy making the estimate couldn't have known that. So I try to feather in the edges and seal it. Then I discover that the bedding is bad - which is why the varnish lifted in the first place. So I dissassemble and rebed. And I continue.

By now it's Wednesday and the forecast was wrong. It starts raining. Crap!

Thursday, you pull all of your tape and retape because the rain has lifted the edges of the tape. Then, you clean everything and get a coat down.

Friday morning you are informed that the customer wants to use his boat on the weekend. You can't put down another coat. And you have to pull the tape and put the boat back together.
Monday, you come back to the job to find that the customer has stepped all over the dry but uncured varnish. Retape and a hard sanding... shall I go on?
These are the things we face.

Example number two:
Customer wants some electric circuits added. You get into the boat and discover that the existing wiring is insane.

You tell the yard manager; he calls the customer; the customer says, "It's always worked before - just add the new circuit and leave the rest alone."

So you try to do it - but there is no room for another circuit breaker. You try to find an unused circuit. Tracing the old wiring takes all day long and by the end of the day you haven't accomplished a thing. Supervisor says - "How come you're not finished - we told the customer this job wouldn't take more than four hours?" You try to explain, but the supervisor is under pressure from the yard manager, who is under pressure from 87 customers.

Nobody wants to hear it. 'Jist git 'er dun!' is all we hear. So we 'git 'er done.'
And sometimes we screw up. I know none of you ever screw up, but sometimes we do. And I know we shouldn't. And I know we are charging $85.00 an hour. And I know that all you can see is a screwed up bill with an inflated price. I'm sorry. But some of us do the best we can under the circumstances.

There are about 35 guys that do the work on the boats here at Hartge Yacht Yard. Many of them have been working here for 20, 25, 30 years.

We have very few youngsters coming into the marina looking for work. The work is too hard. They don't want to do it.

So us old farts carry on. We'd like to retire. Our backs are sore, but our wallets are thin. Prices of food and fuel keep going up. We do not get paid the $85. an hour that is charged for our services. $15 or $20 is all most of us get.

We are a bunch of five figure people living in a six figure world.

So we carry on.

Fixing your boats.

Fixing things that you have no idea how to fix properly. Trying to undo what the owner has crapped on. Trying to fit into spaces and reach things that midgets with three elbows can't. Going home at the end of the day exhausted. And bruised.

And having gotten no thanks from the supervisor. (Compliments are unmanly, you know.) And no thanks from the management or the customer. Just complaints. Always complaints.

If we do something right - and believe it or not we often do - nobody says a thing.

I recently did a cetol job for a customer who had done the job before, himself.

It looked as if he had done it with a broom, from the dock. Without benefit of tape. There was cetol all over the deck, there was cetol all over the metal rubrail so bad that there were places you could not see the rub rail. I spent days cleaning up his mess. (Not included, I find out, in the estimate.) The thing is, if I leave the mess, it is MY fault. If I clean it up, I take too long.

Then I was told that the customer only wanted two coats on, because he wanted to do the third. I'm afraid to go look at the boat.

This turned into a rant, I know. But, I hope, probably in vain, that some of you may be able to see the other side of the coin.

We are not evil. We are, for the most part, not incompetent. We are just workers who are trying to do our job under difficult circumstances.

If you don't like the work, if you don't like the price, just do it yourself.

But when you're finished, turn the same critical eye on your work as you turned on ours. Keep track of your hours spent. Don't do a half-assed job. Do it right. Buy the tools you need. We have to. Work in the hot sun. Work in the freezing cold. Work in the wet. Work eight hours a day. Work with someone who doesn't know what he's talking about criticizing you for doing something that you know is the right way of doing it.

Damn, I'm still ranting. I've had a tough day today. I'm going to drink a healthy dollop of rum and forget I ever saw this damned thread!
 
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#47 ·
We have very few youngsters coming into the marina looking for work. The work is too hard. They don't want to do it.
I would love to work in a marina. I like working with my hands, have auto mechanics background, and engine block machinist experience. Also some fabrication and welding skills. I'm 26 years old, so hardly falling apart yet. But face it, boat repair doesn't pay unless you own the marina. I don't make a bunch of money where I'm working, and can barely afford the place I'm living. But why would I take a paycut to move closer to the water where rent is higher? That doesn't sound like a smart move.

We do not get paid the $85. an hour that is charged for our services. $15 or $20 is all most of us get.
And those guys have been there for 20-30 years? I don't see it as any surprise why you're having trouble finding good motivated people who know what they're doing. It's not that they don't want to do it, its b/c they see a better future/pay in something else.

I don't want it to sound like I'm bustin your chops, hell I agree with you, I've busted my knuckles in 95+ weather and below 35* for nothing more than beer money. But I got older, and figured out cost of living goes up every year, regardless of weather I get a raise or not. Manual labor (for the most part) doesn't pay. Most of the time it doesn't include health benefits or vacation time.

I'd much rather be out in the bad weather than sitting behind this desk, but that would be a poor career move on my part.
 
#11 ·
Larry,

I'm sure there are others here.....but I walk lock step with you! only I work for myself......I bid a job....do the job as if I were working for Jesus, then bill for EXACTLY what I estimated. I eat a LOT of the bill myself.....time AND materials.
My wife says I'm nuts.......but I sleep like a baby.....
It irks me to see shoddy expensive work by others when I do quality work for much less money....
Keep on Rantin' ....... venting helps sometimes......along with knowing you earned your bread by the sweat of your brow.......honestly!
 
#13 ·
Larry, you must be a great guy to hire to do the work (and if only I was at Hartge, I'd be glad to have you working on my boat). BTW, I like Harge, they do have a good reputation, but they are too expensive for me (I am not from six figure world, unfortunately). I bought my current boat at Harge actually :) I wonder if you've seen it before.

But here you talk about how you went about doing a varnish job, and by your description I can tell you that this is not what I've seen from majority (like 9 out of 10) people doing boat work. What I would have expected to happen in most cases, is that varnish would have been painted onto the old varnish without removing anything, without rebedding and without any regard as to how well it is done. The bill would have been the same - $75/hr or so. So, while you do what you do well and care about doing it right - many do not. That's the problem. Whats worse - often it is impossible to even get anyone to do the work - many so called pros aren't even interested in your money (and even worse is when they start a job and leave it unfinished).

Simple example - I need to have a wiring snorkel made. All it is is a piece of 180 degree bent pipe, with one side welded to a flat round flange. If i knew how to weld and had a source of round flanges - I'd make it (I found a source for pipe elbows and I can cut it). But here I am, on a 7th machine shop, asking about this simple thing and more than ready to pay pretty much whatever they ask for it. And yet so far I usually call once, get a vague promise of doing something, and then call 10 more times and nothing gets done. That's the marine industry I see.

So far my one real positive experience with marine pros was with Mack sails out of Florida. They asked only a few necessary questions, did a quick and quality job, charged less than local lofts and all this was done very promptly. I would highly recommend them to anyone. That's my positive list. At the same time I have a long list of places I would highly recommend against.

So, that's my rant. :)
 
#14 ·
Thanks, guys, I appreciate that.

And Buckeye? "Poverty motivates me in ways prosperity never could." Great line - cracked me right up!

Humor always helps. And rum...
 
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#15 ·
Amen Larry!!!! Please forgive me for joining you in your rant.... I'm thinking you guys never read the Dilbert comics in the paper? Any boat yard is set up first to make money. They're not set up to make Larry rich and they're not set up to fix boats. The bean counters set the system up and they're the folks who say if the yard remains open or that everybody goes home. This business is hugely capital intensive. Taxes are crazy, EPA requirements are crazy, not to mention OSHA. I saw the equal access bathroom regulations once. 400 pages! Jeesum. I don't even want to think about the permitting process for dock repairs (cause you can't just go down and fix 'em) and the cost of building maintenance up here in the northeast. You have to pay all that before Larry even sees your boat..... You can get that ideal quality of repair work done, but it costs a lot more than $85/hr. There is a reason 90% of us here are do-it-yourself'ers, and we should be. Up here in the northeast, if you bob around in the water for an hour, even in the summer, it means death. You are the Captain. YOU and nobody else.. any explanation you can think of will not be accepted once you're in the drink. Know your boat and if it isn't right, do it over until it is. God bless you Larry and thank you for the hard work you do.
 
#17 ·
Amen Larry!!!! Please forgive me for joining you in your rant.... I'm thinking you guys never read the Dilbert comics in the paper? Any boat yard is set up first to make money. They're not set up to make Larry rich and they're not set up to fix boats. The bean counters set the system up and they're the folks who say if the yard remains open or that everybody goes home. .
Well, ideally then I should be able to hire Larry or other people that do good work directly, we can strike a deal somewhere between what the yard charges and what the yard pays employees and both be happy with results. What the heck, I'll pay whatever I pay the yard even - just to know I get good expertise and someone that knows what they are doing and likes it :) :)

The one issue with this system is - good people are few and far between, and very hard to find. Leafing through yellow pages ain't it for sure.

A few years ago with my previous boat I hired a guy who has a shop in Annapolis (he has his own company, referred to by major marinas there). All I needed was a few replacement thruhulls. Well, here is how it went:
- He cut out old thruhulls with reciprocating saw, damaging boat hull in process (cut lots of deep gouges around every single one of them)
- He patched up gouges with some epoxy slapped right over the old ablative bottom paint and dirt that was there.
- He stuffed new thru-hulls into old holes without cleaning them of old paint or sealant, just smeared some 5200 and put them in. All that also went right on top of old bottom paint.
- Then he sprayed some thru-hull black paint on each one to cover up.
- Also - for reasons unknown he decided that the head thru-hull was too small (1.25") so he cut out a bigger hole and installed 1.5" thruhull - bronze, with a ball valve which weighted about 40lbs. Since there was not enough clearance he cut the thruhull short, leaving only a few threads (and this was the ugliest most uneven cut, looked like teeth all over the top of the thru hull pipe).
There was more. When I asked him to fix some of these things, he disappeared and stopped returning my calls. So, I had to take all that crap out, fix the hull, properly install and bed thru-hulls etc. Now I do this stuff myself.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Anyone have any thoughts and experiences on the subject that they would like to share?
I find that dealing with a boatyard is much the same as dealing with any contractor. You need to be completely specific about what it is that you expect and what you will be charged for. Write everything down. Specifiy which materials will be used.

If the yard or the contractor balks at this - move on to someone else. The pros are fine with contracts and actually prefer them.

Realise that when you change your mind or make 'adjustments', it is going to cost your contractor time and money and you cannot reasonably expect them to absorb that. You made the change so you need to cover the expense.

Hold back 10% of the payment until you are satisfied that all the work is done properly and you have had a chance to inspect it. Discuss this at the start of the job. Don't wait until payday and then offer 90%.

I have had most success by only contracting one task at a time. If I need several things done, I break it down and hire people in logical order. The times I have had the largest number of problems have been when I used "project managers".

A couple of times I have been 100% satisfied. There are times that I have been happy with the work, but not with the time it took, or what it cost. There are times I have been happy with the price but not the work. There have been times when things were done quickly, but it was pricey and shoddy.

Given the choice - I will pay the extra money for the better work. If I have the time though, I much prefer to do things myself. :)
 
#19 ·
Sailormann, I agree with your assessment on how to get the job done.

I've been a contractor in construction for over 35 years, and I've dealt with clients that didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground about my work, tried to run the job by telling me how it was suppose to be, and how long it should take. I've also dealt with clients that didn't know a thing about what I do, told me what they wanted, and gave me complete control in getting the job done. I've bid some jobs that tried to get me down in price, and jobs that never said a thing about the price.

A long time ago I didn't know what my value was, so I worked for less. As the years went by I realized by the horror stories told me by others, that I was worth more than I thought. From that day on I decided that I would never prostitute my labor again, and I would always do the best work that I can...for a price! Good work comes at a price, and if the client doesn't want to pay the price, then he doesn't get me to do the work (Period). One day my dad (rest his soul) said to me "there are no craftsmen anymore", and I told him, "Oh yes there are, you're looking at one! But dad, I'm sorry to tell you this. No real craftsman would ever work for you, because you're a cheap ass."

Everyone that has the gift of working with their hands, can look back at what they did for the day, and feel good inside about a job well done...and they deserve to be paid for good work. I know this about craftsmen, and it's the same with all craftsmen, no matter what they do. I'm willing to pay for good work, and I tell the people doing work for me that. I know that it takes time to do good work, and time cost money...that's just the way it is. Many people will hire and pay an unskilled worker to do a job for them, and they'll think they got the better of the deal...but their just fooling themselves. It takes years to get good at something, and those years of dedication to a craft should be rewarded with good pay. Now the question comes, how much should a good worker make? I think a good worker should be able to take home at least $200.00 a day. If the worker wants to make more money, then he needs to go into business for himself, and then that's when the hourly price gets to $70.00 to $80.00 per hour. Why the big jump in pay? Now the man's company is paying taxes, workers compensation if he has workers, insurance, rent, utilities, purchasing equipment...and the list goes on. People think their getting ripped off, but that's the cost of being in business.

I know these things when I go to a yard, and I know I'm going to pay through the nose for good work, but I'm willing to pay if I get it. When I have engine work done (and it's not often), I tell them to look for everything that needs to be done, and do it. When I'm having electrical or electronic work done, if they find something that's not right, then make it right. Once you get everything right, all that's left from then on is normal maintenance...and that is the work I do for myself.

Tell the yard or contractor what you want, ask them for suggestions if they see something you don't, get a proposal listing the work they're going to do, a price for doing the work, and a time frame when it will be done. If these people come recommended, and you have a good feeling about them, sign the contract and give them a deposit. If you get a bad feeling about them, move on to the next contractor until you find the one you like. Plan on the work taking longer to get done and costing a little more, as there is always the chance of some unforeseen problem...they don't have x-ray eyes.

Do these things and you will probably have a good experience.

Did I rant long enough? :p
 
#21 ·
Two ways...

There are only two ways to own a boat.

#1 Be wealthy and pay people to do stuff for you and yes you will get screwed.

#2 Be a DIY boat owner.

About the only things I contract out are Awlgrip or bottom stripping because I hate it. Everything else I do myself including engine changes and repair work.Can I afford to pay a boat yard to do my work for me? Sure, but I figure I've saved well over 200K in the last 20 years by NOT doing it that way..

Take the boat yard estimates and ALWAYS add at least 33%!
 
#22 ·
I try to do it all myself. I'm pretty good with tools, my hands etc. I once hired out a bottom paint at a local marina. They did a suck job, loose paint still left on the boat and just pasted a new coat on top. But they didn't charge a penny more than estimated. I then had them do my power boat's bottom and the job came in at 500 bucks more becuase they had to grind out the barnacles they had not seen, fair enough.
I bring in experts that allow me to watch when I don't know how to do it. I also only use bonded, insured businesses for issues that involve safety, and I include heavy electrical wiring in that; do it wrong and the boat burns or someone gets hurt. The contractor that installed my electical add-ons last year did the job as estimated, a couple of hours late (my fault probably as I was on board watching and talking to him).

In short, I've never had a problem that I would call a problem.

I know I drip varnish, miss spots and make mistakes. I see and feel every run, drip and fish eye I lay down, even when you don't see it I know it's there.

'Professional' just means you get paid to do it, it doesn't imbue some demi-god like ability to be mistake free. It doesn't even mean the pro is more knowledgeable about the job although with a specialist it should.
I do expect a certain level of efficiency from a 'professional' simply because they do the work more often and know the tricks of the trade.

Enlightened amatuers who love to work on boats (I'm one) do a better job, or at least try to, and when it's our boat or even a friends we do the best we can. I actually have more experience helping friends grind / sand / paint etc.. on their boat than I do on mine.

Now if you'll pardon me, I've got some fish eyes to fix in my interior varnish. I forgot to clean the teak with acetone before laying a unthinned first coat :)
 
#28 ·
I try to do it all myself. I'm pretty good with tools, my hands etc. I once hired out a bottom paint at a local marina. They did a suck job, loose paint still left on the boat and just pasted a new coat on top. But they didn't charge a penny more than estimated. I then had them do my power boat's bottom and the job came in at 500 bucks more becuase they had to grind out the barnacles they had not seen, fair enough.
I bring in experts that allow me to watch when I don't know how to do it. I also only use bonded, insured businesses for issues that involve safety, and I include heavy electrical wiring in that; do it wrong and the boat burns or someone gets hurt. The contractor that installed my electical add-ons last year did the job as estimated, a couple of hours late (my fault probably as I was on board watching and talking to him).

In short, I've never had a problem that I would call a problem.

I know I drip varnish, miss spots and make mistakes. I see and feel every run, drip and fish eye I lay down, even when you don't see it I know it's there.

'Professional' just means you get paid to do it, it doesn't imbue some demi-god like ability to be mistake free. It doesn't even mean the pro is more knowledgeable about the job although with a specialist it should.
I do expect a certain level of efficiency from a 'professional' simply because they do the work more often and know the tricks of the trade.

Enlightened amatuers who love to work on boats (I'm one) do a better job, or at least try to, and when it's our boat or even a friends we do the best we can. I actually have more experience helping friends grind / sand / paint etc.. on their boat than I do on mine.

Now if you'll pardon me, I've got some fish eyes to fix in my interior varnish. I forgot to clean the teak with acetone before laying a unthinned first coat :)
I will never say that an owner or an enlightened amateur cannot do as good of a job as a professional, as I've seen many jobs done by owners as good as a professional could do. The main difference between an owner and a professional is, a professional has to be able to do the job fast enough to make a living at it. Among professionals there are other defining characteristic that they share besides putting out a a good job as fast as they can, and they are integrity and honesty. There is also an unwritten code of ethics among professionals, which also means that the good guys know who the other good guys are...Pros do not generally associate with hacks. A professional should also be as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable than the people that hire him, mainly because he has dealt with these situations many more times than the owner, and he is genuinely interested in solving the problem. Pros talk to their peers if they have a problem that is stumping them (which is usually not often), and exchange bits of information that they learn or know about. I'm talking about the real professionals, not the unskilled workers workers that unfortunately there are more of. Professionals also tend to be specialist in the work that they gravitate to, so it's important to pick the right person for the job at hand. Just like in construction contracting, I'm sure a yard tries to put together the best team of professionals they can...but pros are hard to come by. With parents pushing all of their kids to go into college (even though the kid may not be college material), and the high schools and colleges not offering good shop classes, the trades are not replenishing their work force as fast as the demand for these types of workers. So what are you left with, lots of unskilled labor, and not enough mentors to go around.
 
#23 ·
IMHO all hired boatyard projects require adult supervision if you want them to turn out well, and it will always cost more than the estimate.
That is why I do almost everything myself, it's less frustration and it get's done right.

John
 
#24 ·
Two things ( perhaps more) spring to mind;
$85 an hour is not a lot of money for skilled craftsmen.
If its a big job hire a project manager- and hire them at the start, not when you feel cheated.
Learn to do a lot of this work yourself- The boat is 100% your responsibility, make your self available at any time, and check on the work each night/ morning. If there are problems bring them up at that time not at the end of the project. This way you can also keep your self updated on the costs.
No yard will really care about YOUR boat the way you do, but most all of them employ honest hard working craftsmen. Learn to work with the people doing the work, treat them with respect, stay out of their way, and if you don't know/ understand what they are doing or why, ask them, yes you are paying them while they talk to you, but in the long run its worth it.
I know this does not help your situation....
 
#25 ·
My wife told me I am not allowed to give ball-park estimates anymore. No matter that everyone always says "I won't hold you to it", if the job come out more than the "off the top of my head" estimate, they almost always say "well Steve said it would only be this much."
I have always made it a practice to tell my customers that I encourage them to be here while we are working on their boat. That way I don't have to explain later why it took me 15 minutes to unscrew a turnbuckle that hadn't been lubed or exercised since the Clinton administration. Or why I had to remove the entire spreader and take it into the shop in order to remove the pin holding the discontinuous rigging to the tip because no one bothered to apply a little never-seize to it when the boat was commissioned.
I have heard lots of horror stories about boatyards but I can't think of too many that if the customer had been diligent about overseeing the job and clarifying things before hand and the yard had been diligent about keeping the customer informed and aware of complications that arise wouldn't have turned out a lot better.
As Larry said, we are not evil, we are not trying to take advantage of our customers. That would be stupid.
It takes a whole lot of "Atta boys" to make up for one "Aw ****". Anyone serious about being in business knows that.
A good reputation is the best advertising that a business can have and if a company forgets that they should hang it up.
 
#30 ·
Also well said knothead!

I learned along time ago to never give a quote or an estimate on the spot (listen to your wife), because if I'm going to make a mistake, it's going to be then. When I look at a job, I'm going there first to meet the client, and second to see what the problem is. I then go back to the office to think about what I saw and talked about, think about what material I'll need to do the job, and how long it's going to take to do the job. Then and only then, can I know how much it's going to cost, to do the kind of job I'll be expected to do. When I'm asked for an on the spot estimate, I tell them I don't know yet because I have to figure it our first. If the become insistent for a price, then I ask them "How much money do you have?" ...that usually shuts them up! :D

And isn't that the truth about "Atta boys" and "Aw ****"! You can do hundreds of good jobs, and one not so good, and that one not so good will kill you. ...reputation is everything.
 
#26 ·
I would bet that most here are less angry, and more understanding, about going over budget than they are about the careless work. I know I am. If I am paying to have work done, I expect it to be done well--I can accept explanations about why it took more, especially if the explanation details other problems that had to be made right to continue. Hell, I'd be happy that someone cared to do it right.

The one job I had done by a yard--replacement primary fuel filter that I didn't have time for--was botched ridiculously. The work was presented as completed and fixed with an new air leak through a forced, torn fuel line, and with the bleed screw still open! And I hear too many other stories to ignore.

There are good craftsmen out there, and good yards like Hartge's, but it's hard to know which ones to go to.

When someone has a job done by a yard, and the job was done well, it should be posted here, so we can all benefit. I'll do so when I dare stick my toe in that pool again.

Tom
 
#32 ·
I would bet that most here are less angry, and more understanding, about going over budget than they are about the careless work. I know I am. If I am paying to have work done, I expect it to be done well--I can accept explanations about why it took more, especially if the explanation details other problems that had to be made right to continue. Hell, I'd be happy that someone cared to do it right.

The one job I had done by a yard--replacement primary fuel filter that I didn't have time for--was botched ridiculously. The work was presented as completed and fixed with an new air leak through a forced, torn fuel line, and with the bleed screw still open! And I hear too many other stories to ignore.

There are good craftsmen out there, and good yards like Hartge's, but it's hard to know which ones to go to.

When someone has a job done by a yard, and the job was done well, it should be posted here, so we can all benefit. I'll do so when I dare stick my toe in that pool again.

Tom
I will not defend a yard or individual that calls themselves a professional, and does not live up to it, so I totally relate to what you're saying.

Over a year ago I had one reputable yard in San Fransisco, do all the deferred maintenance on this engine that needed to be done. I basically gave them a blank check, and told them to look for everything that they could find, because I was taking this boat 500 miles and I didn't want any engine problems. Not long ago I had another professional in San Diego do some alternator work for me (rebuild), and after he told me it was all done, I took his word for him and paid him. The next time I got down to the boat I took a look at what he had done, and I found one bolt not bolted down (there was only two bolts to bolt down). A person would have to be blind to not see that one bolt begging to be bolted down, but I didn't get pissed off. I finished the job, and put this "professional" on my do not use list. He didn't come recommended (I found him myself), and maybe he does do good work (just didn't for me), but I'm now forced not to use him again...his loss not mine.
 
#27 ·
I believe that the issue of overpaying for poor workmanship is not limited to boats. My advice is to only deal with the guy that actually does the work. If that means that you have to do it yourself, so be it.

If I pay top dollar to have work done by a "professional," I expect that the job should be done by a knowledgable person, in a reasonable amount of time. The cost is not THE issue, but an issue. There is also an element of trust on the part of the consumer, that the job will be done right.

I have just ended an exercise with my car (Audi) dealer, where I asked them to fix the rear window washer (a $100 part), and in the process the technician broke the rear hatch trim (an $850 part). Initially the service adviser said that they would replace the trim, and that they would call when the part was in stock. After a month, I called him to inquire, and the service adviser claimed that teh service manager told him that the technician didn't break the trim. After writing a letter to the GM of the dealership and the manufacturer, the service manager ordered and replaced A part, just not the one that the technician broke. The technician did screw the trim peice to the underlying metal, in order to patch the part that he, or another tech broke at no charge...

I have entrusted this car to this dealership for service for over 8 years. I have never quibbled over the price for work that was performed. However in this case the service department intentionally misled me, and played a "shell game" between Service Advisor, Manager and Technician. The problem that they created was actually solved by the screw, and believe that I would have accepted this fix if they were straight with me in the beginning. Now, however my trust is gone. Guess which dealership, and therefore brand of car, will NOT be getting any more business from me. I am looking for a competent individual to whom I can take my car to get serviced. I insist that I deal with the guy that actually works on my car.

I believe that the situation is even worse with a boat. The boat tends to be older, and there is more "stuff" that has been added by previous owners. If I lived in the Annapolis area, I would GLADLY pay Larry $85/hr to work on my boat (when I get one :eek: ).

Ed
 
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