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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
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  #11  
Old 09-23-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southshoreS24 View Post
why not repair the problem, reinforce the area to help prevent future problems and then put a piece of stainless mesh or something over the large void so that water could drain down, you don't loose the benefits of a deep bilge but if you drop anything larger then then holes in the ss mesh it doesn't fall into oblivion.
K.I.S.S. FTW.
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  #12  
Old 09-23-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
I personally and I think many others would love to have a deep bilge. Too many modern boats have a very flat bilge and a cup or two of water will spread very easily to lockers etc. I would leave it alone after doing the repairs needed. Filling it in will not be a panacea for future groundings or damage as they could occur elsewhere. If you do fill it in use foam of some sort with epoxy as a large epoxy pour will heat and crack leaving you with a result that is not very strong anyway when it cures too fast (exothern). But if you do damage in the future in the same area be prepared to dig it all out to effect a proper repair.
Brian
Agree...

And I would consult a naval archtiect before pouring concrete in my bilge. Seriously. There are uses for Quickcrete and this ain't one of em.

Jeff.... where are you????

- CD
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  #13  
Old 09-23-2009
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Thanks guys, sorry if I was unclear but that was the conclusion I came to as well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blowfish View Post
I will definately look into the structural foam option. Otherwise, I will probably just repair the crack from the outside, clean the hell out of the bilge, prep it, and lay up a bunch of new layers of mat or roving to try and build up the inside. Thanks again!
The mesh is an interesting idea, but as I indicated earlier the primary issue was trying to reinforce the area, with being able to reach the bottom merely a fringe benefit. I'll just repair it on the outside and strengthen it from inside.
thanks again!
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  #14  
Old 09-23-2009
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Hmm, Oh Joy's bilges are 42" beneath the engine and slope upwards going fore and aft from there. It's a great storage area, especially for booze.
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  #15  
Old 09-23-2009
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Its always good to ask real experts......

This was my problem/solution;

"In order to get the sump mentioned below I will have to raise the floor of the full keel (except for the sump bit) by approx. 3 inches. I was not exactly sure what to use for this so I e-mailed the folks at Gougeon Bros., the West System people. Jim Derck e-mailed me back with a solution he had used before, which was;

"I made up a sample of 105 Resin, 209 Extra Slow Hardener and added it to play ground sand at a ratio of two parts sand to one part epoxy. I poured this mix to depth of three inches and monitored it with a digital thermometer. After an hour it was no warmer than 130 degrees F which is no problem for the laminate or the curing epoxy. "


The Incredible Hull: bilge
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  #16  
Old 09-23-2009
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That makes sense as a filler. I think we were questioning the why more than the how. At least I was.
Brian
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  #17  
Old 09-24-2009
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I must admit this is one of the stranger threads that I have seen but sorting through this it sounds like you have a whole range of issues and that few of them will be resolved by filling the bilge with epoxy.

If I remember correctly the Pearson 365 has an encapsulated lead keel. If that is the case, the anatomy of the keel is that there is a structural encapsulation envelope that is molded as a part of the hull. The lead is inserted into the cavity and adhered with a polyester resin slurry, and then there is a membrane over the keel that forms the bottom of the bilge. On the Pearsons with encapsulated keels that I have direct experience with the membrane at the top of the keel is quite thin and therefore easily ruptured in a grounding.

If you are experiencing leaks you probably have several problems here. First of all, the encapsulation envelope has been breeched allowing water into the space between the ballast keel and the encapsulation envelope. Since the encapsulation envelope is structural, the areas were there are hair line cracks need to be ground back to solid glass free of delamination and cracking. The ground area should be ground out with tapered edges at a 1:12 ratio, and then glassed over with epoxy and cloth. That alone is a pretty major job since Pearson's glass work in the keel stub is pretty crude with lenses of unreinforced resin and dry glass, so that once you open a hairline crack you are likely to need to open a large area.

The second likely repair is to the bond between the ballast keel and the envelope. In a hard grounding the ballast keel typically shifts sheering the bond between the encapsulation and the ballast. This bond is a structural element partially resisting the impact of a future grounding. Once the cavity fills with water it is very hard to re-establish the bond.

The keel should be tapped out looking for delaminated and separated areas. If voids are present they should be drained and the bond re-established.

Lastly the membrane should be ground out and reglassed to establish a water tight envelope above the ballast.

Filling the void behind the ballast keel is merely cosmetic at that point. That said, that void forms the perfect bilge pump pick-up point so I personally would not fill it in.

Jeff
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  #18  
Old 09-24-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I must admit this is one of the stranger threads that I have seen but sorting through this it sounds like you have a whole range of issues and that few of them will be resolved by filling the bilge with epoxy.

If I remember correctly the Pearson 365 has an encapsulated lead keel. If that is the case, the anatomy of the keel is that there is a structural encapsulation envelope that is molded as a part of the hull. The lead is inserted into the cavity and adhered with a polyester resin slurry, and then there is a membrane over the keel that forms the bottom of the bilge. On the Pearsons with encapsulated keels that I have direct experience with the membrane at the top of the keel is quite thin and therefore easily ruptured in a grounding.

If you are experiencing leaks you probably have several problems here. First of all, the encapsulation envelope has been breeched allowing water into the space between the ballast keel and the encapsulation envelope. Since the encapsulation envelope is structural, the areas were there are hair line cracks need to be ground back to solid glass free of delamination and cracking. The ground area should be ground out with tapered edges at a 1:12 ratio, and then glassed over with epoxy and cloth. That alone is a pretty major job since Pearson's glass work in the keel stub is pretty crude with lenses of unreinforced resin and dry glass, so that once you open a hairline crack you are likely to need to open a large area.

The second likely repair is to the bond between the ballast keel and the envelope. In a hard grounding the ballast keel typically shifts sheering the bond between the encapsulation and the ballast. This bond is a structural element partially resisting the impact of a future grounding. Once the cavity fills with water it is very hard to re-establish the bond.

The keel should be tapped out looking for delaminated and separated areas. If voids are present they should be drained and the bond re-established.

Lastly the membrane should be ground out and reglassed to establish a water tight envelope above the ballast.

Filling the void behind the ballast keel is merely cosmetic at that point. That said, that void forms the perfect bilge pump pick-up point so I personally would not fill it in.

Jeff
Good job, jeff.

- CD
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  #19  
Old 09-25-2009
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Wow Jeff, that is one heck of a response, thank you! It sounds like I have a lot of investigation and fact finding to do before I can even begin to formulate a repair plan. As I understand it, you recommend the following as part of that investigation:

1. Thorough inspection of the bilge above the encapsulated lead for any signs of cracking (also including a thorough external inspection for any signs of cracking in the hull around the keel);

2. Sounding out the lead keel for any delamination, voids or hollow spots that might indicate water has entered into the area between the ballast and the envelope;

3. Inspection of the membrane (seems like #1 will cover that).

I'm a little surprised that this much damage could occur from what I felt like was a minor incident. We essentially rode over something in a river. While you could feel the boat lift slightly, it didn't change our speed or course at all. I figured the crack was a result of the fiberglass under the sump portion of the keel flexing slightly as it went over whatever we were going over, thereby causing a slight crack where the hollow sump portion of the keel meets the 3 inch thick solid portion of the bottom of the keel. Hence my desire to strengthen the area a bit more.

In any case, you've definately pointed out some more significant issues that will be thoroughly looked into.
Thanks for your insight!
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